| LED Digest 1988: The Undersell Pitfall |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest post, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. June 29, 2005 Issue #1988 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== SEO Pricing ==-- ~ Renee Kennedy "...showing them hard and fast numbers may turn them around." ~ David Jonah "Pick a revenue per page and bill from it." ~ Will Bontrager "Robert, your post emphasizes that your client is also a friend..." --== False Economy ==-- ~ Tracy Coyle "Most business owners are not like me." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== Battling Chargebacks ==-- ~ John Washington ===== CONTINUING ================================= From: Renee Kennedy Subject: False economy > ... how crazy is my pricing structure, and how crazy is this > client? Am I a fool for selling this service for so cheap, or for > thinking that I can get paid for over ten years of experience? - Robert Bedard, LED 1987 Robert, It's not that you're crazy or that your client is crazy. It's that they don't understand the value of marketing a site properly. In this case, you can do two things: 1. You can walk away, but be sure to explain to them why it's not worth your time, you have to pay the bills, too. 2. You can bite the bullet, take the job, and use it as a case study to prove to your next client that marketing pays off. You have probably already spent $500 worth of time simply analyzing what needs to be done. If the company has the money to pay for your services, then it might be wise to take the time to personally meet with them, bring in your data and blow them away with statistics. Tell them why they need SEO services and a revamp of their entire site. Say things like "You will triple your income or leads from your site." Show them Google page rank and Alexa rankings. Show them where their competitors stand in the engines. In other words, showing them hard and fast numbers may turn them around. It has worked in numerous situations for our company. It's the only thing that works. Good luck! Renee Kennedy www.e-healthcaresolutions.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: David Jonah Subject: False economy I have been lurking and reading the posts and decided to weigh in on this post regarding costs. There are as many pricing schedules and rates as there are SEO worker bees. Set a page rate and check the amount of time you are spending. The time you spent analyzing the log is similar to getting paid for an idea or a design, everyone wants an original idea / design, but hate to pay for the empty mind time. Pick a revenue per page and bill from it. Then add a service / admin fee for overhead. Start at $100.-150. per page for copy that is already supplied on an existing web site. You still have writing to do but you should be able to do a 2-3 pages in a reasonable day. If you have to research and generate the keyword content on a page, then you are moving to double that rate per page and many SEO professionals are in the $500. per page and more rate for research and writing. Think that's high. Check your real committed time consumed per page and then compare that to an electrician or plumber you hire to work at your home. Time in your case is money and you are delivering a real bargain to the "friend", .... my friend. Regards David Jonah, Wordsmith & Web Jonah & Associates www.jonah-associates.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Will Bontrager Subject: SEO Service Pricing > I quoted them a price of between $500-1,000 for > SEO... as fas as I am concerned, I am giving > away this service. (It is a friend.) - Robert Bedard, LED 1987 Mr. Bedard, I am unable to comment on appropriate fees for the SEO work you mentioned. But I can comment on providing price breaks to individuals who expect it. It begets problems. Every time, and I admit I was a slow learner with this one, that I gave a price break to someone because they asked for it, citing circumstances they felt were reasons for the discount, they proceeded to try to take further advantage, again and again, until we fired them. It had me baffled for some time. This is what I've concluded: When I "give in" (from the customer's point of view) and provide a price break, I'm seen as an easy push-over. Even after repeated denials of additional requests and, yes, demands for price breaks on, or to throw in some free stuff with, additional services or software, that first impression of "he's a push-over" persists. Mari and I have never had that problem when we've provided services or software at no charge. And we've never had that problem with the monthly discounts and specials we provide for our valued customer club members, the occasional discounts to Possibilities ezine subscribers, or the annual discount available to the general public. The problem only surfaced when a price break was given after a customer asked for it, expecting to get it. Robert, your post emphasizes that your client is also a friend. It may be prudent to think about your quoted fee one more time. Friends, more so than casual acquaintances, realize the value of each other's contributions. A friend would no more expect to pay less for your work than you would anticipate providing a substandard service. Those are not ways to treat friends. But they are ways to take advantage in the name of friendship. Truly, if a price break is a sign of friendship, then doing it for free would be just and proper. Would it not? Will Bontrager http://bontragerconnection.com/ ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Tracy Coyle Subject: False economy > Those who are struggling to pay the utility bills on their > small shops and buy templated web sites from Sams > Club at $5 monthly are very different people. > It's the ones struggling to pay their tiny bills in order to remain > independent and hope for better futures that are coming to > WebSite101 to read basic internet business tutorials at the rate of > 150,000 monthly. They are the ones purchasing $5 templates from > TemplateMonster and learning basic HTML to build their own sites, > then hosting with GoDaddy on that $3.95 plan after purchasing $7.95 > domains for one year terms. - Mike Banks Valentine, LED 1987 I have followed this discussion and am ready to jump in with my two cents. I have received LED for many years. On occasion, familiar names here have offered suggestions, comments and feedback on our primary website (http://www.cazelaw.com), most recently Mike Martinez with some excellent suggestions. We host with a provider that allows me to have almost unlimited domains (we have 9 right now, 5 actively available) for $30 per month. Our domains are with GoDaddy on annual renewals. And there is no way we could afford $1000 for web designer or SEO services....we couldn't afford $500. We have no yellow page ad - too expensive and the ROI for the three years we did have ads was less than $1. We do not advertise in print media for the same reason. Broadcast media was even worse. After 3 years of going into debt for advertising, we focused on three areas that gave us reasonable ROI. Our website ROI was over $100 for the first three years, is still over $80. Our direct mail, printed on regular color paper with an ink jet printer and mailed IN HAND ADDRESSED envelopes, has an ROI of $125 (a closing rate of 4% - not response rate, closing rate). Every prospect within 60 miles gets a direct mail piece. Our third source is referral programs - usually free ones. This year we paid for referrals, the ROI is barely $1, we are terminating our agreement with them as you read this. I have done all the coding on our site, all the design. Most of the wording is ours. Our site gets very specific types of clients - just the kind we want. Every month I get solicitations to "improve" our site, make it more professional. We have been at the top of search engine rankings, and no where to be found. I am an exception, I have a strong computer background and actually like doing the web work...doing most of it late in the evening and on weekends. Most business owners are not like me. To Robert Bedard: You are a professional, ask your friend if he offers 50% discounts for friends for his 'professional' services...? To those making a living at design or SEO (or trying to!) do not undersell yourself. We call it rent-law, whatever pays the rent....it does not serve your clients or yourself. Tracy Coyle, Owner/partner, webmaster, office manager, secretary and janitor for cazelaw.com, clientaid.com, victorianholmes.com, wisconsinbankruptcyhelp.com. ==== BILLBOARD =================================== From: John Washington Subject: Cancelled Orders Amazed, befuddled, and exasperated at the extent to which the small merchant is victimized by credit card fraud. My story involves charge backs due mainly to not keeping updated inventory on site which caused a Google search to target my 'out of stock' item for which I scrambled to a comparison search engine to fulfill if it was available. Needless to say, many times item was shipped to late or simply not found resulting in a charge back if I did not timely issue a refund through the gateway. A department / category (automobile electronics) that is infested with con artists had instances in which $295, $395., and $795. items going to Canada or South America only to have the purchaser deny having made the purchase and to accuse his/her bank of not closing down the charge account per instructions. And of course the processor protects their backside by identifying with the card issuing bank in holding the merchant suspect. Now, as in the class that only gets access to 'hard money' loans, we are saddled with a high charge back-to-sale ratio that the processor is obligated to inform the major issuers of. Question: Other than third party processors or 'hard money' merchant providers, what strategies can a small business employ to get back on track and stay fraud-protected? Appreciate All Advice John Washington www.dolrahsbayberrylane.com mrjw1, aol.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2005 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." - Desiderius Erasmus |
