| LED Digest 1989: Special Issue - SEO Pricing |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest post, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. June 30, 2005 Issue #1989 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== SEO Pricing ==-- ~ Michel Hendriks "I wish you were one of my friends!" ~ Michael Linehan "Your approach so far...is way overkill..." ~ Shari Thurow "Take the friendship part out of the equation." ~ Adam Bostock "...you wouldn't believe just how crazy people are with regard to many things..." ~ Greg Watson "...there are only two basic pricing strategies." ===== CONTINUING ================================= <Moderator Comment> Since this thread is so popular, we're making it the sole focus of this issue (and maybe tomorrow's issue as well). New topics are welcome, though, so don't hold back ;-) Best wishes, Adam --------------------- From: Michel Hendriks Subject: SEO Pricing > ... how crazy is my pricing structure, and how crazy is this > client? Am I a fool for selling this service for so cheap, or for > thinking that I can get paid for over ten years of experience? - Robert Bedard, LED 1987 Hi Robert, I remember that there was a post regarding this issue some weeks ago, the only difference is that it was about web design. In my opinion, you are giving this away for free. We also offer SEO optimization as an extra service and charge USD 39 just for the home page. We only target 1 keyword (we determine the keyword based on Keywordtracker results and KEI index), we submit the homepage to the engines and we do not even write the copy for the homepage as this is a totally different area. In fact, we only give them an advice of what the best keyword to target would be and give them advice on how to implement other features to gain ranking. From your story, optimizing 22 pages, 3 levels deep for 200+ keywords and also writing copy for the website, seems to be an enormous task. I wish you were one of my friends! I am certain that your friend will not find a better deal anywhere else. If he hired a professional company to do the SEO work for him and hired a copywriter as well to just write the copy based on the keywords he had to target, he would have to spend way over $5,000, especially for 200 or more keywords. I think 20 keywords is more than enough to optimize a site. Just my 2 cents... Regards, Michel Hendriks, Project Manager MultiCards Internet Billing http://www.multicards.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Michael Linehan Subject: SEO Service Pricing Hi Robert, I'd recommend a couple of things: 1. OK. He's your friend. Does he give you 50% or 75% off everything you buy from him? If not, why are you doing it for him? 2. Rather that do everything and charge him $X, you may want to go the other way around and ask yourself - what worthwhile work can I do for $500? And you most definitely can do a worthwhile (albeit basic) job for that. 3. Your approach so far - analyzing 200 days of server logs is way overkill (in my mind) for what he wants to pay for. Use Wordtracker or 'Overture' and get two or three good keyphrases. If you're going to do that exhaustive level of work on every aspect of this project, you are going to end up spending a large amount of your time for no return. Given what you say about his business, yes- I think it is one of those cases of ridiculous expectations and false economy. Ask him how much he pays for all his brochures, ads, etc. Personally, there is no way I'd do a job for $500 for someone grossing millions a year - friend or not --- except purely on a reasonable per hour basis while explaining to him that there was much more that could be done. With a toe in the door, he'd hopefully come back later and have you do the rest. Michael Linehan www.marketing-alchemy.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Shari Thurow Subject: SEO Service Pricing > I quoted them a price of between $500-1,000 for > SEO... as fas as I am concerned, I am giving > away this service. (It is a friend.) - Robert Bedard, LED 1987 Hi all- This is in response to Robert Bedard's post in LED #1987 regarding SEO pricing. I, too, was a Web designer when Netscape didn't support tables (shudder). I have been in his shoes and I am in his shoes. First, I think optimizing 22 pages at a price range of between $500 and $1,000 is exceptionally kind. Especially since you described the amount of work that needs to be done to your friend's site. That's a price of between $23-$45 per page (approximately). I realize that this might startle some people, but Web pages can cost between $500 to $800 (or more) per page. There is a lot of work that goes into a Web page: coding, scripting, programming, copywriting, graphic image work, animation, research, optimization, information architecture, usability, focus groups, user testing, consulting and feedback, etc. When I was outsourced to one midwestern (U.S.) agency, this was the price they quoted per page, with Flash pages being $800 per page. I thought that was way, way, way too expensive. But then I really thought about it, and I realized that there is a lot of work that goes into putting together a Web site. You have to factor in overhead, the different types of people who need to be compensated for their work on a project, and expenses. I understand that Mr. Bedard is a one-person company, but that does not make his work any less important than work done through an agency. This is what I do. I have friends and colleagues who utilize my services, too. They know what my time is worth, and they are respectful of my rates. That is the bottom line - your friend does not appear to respect the amount of time and expertise it takes to perform an optimization job. If your friend will not respect your skills, expertise, and time, then he is not a good client to retain. Retain the friendship. You don't have to retain the client. I am aware that this might sound harsh. I've just been in his shoes. Take the friendship part out of the equation. How would you handle this situation without the friendship part? That is the answer. Sincerely, Shari Thurow, Webmaster/Marketing Director Grantastic Designs, Inc. http://www.grantasticdesigns.com/tips.html ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Adam Bostock Subject: SEO pricing I had to smile to myself when I saw the reference to "crazy". I deal with virtually every aspect of innovation, and you wouldn't believe just how crazy people are with regard to many things: especially if it's a new idea. In a nutshell, if people do not understand the benefits immediately then they do not want to listen - even if the benefits are 10 or 100 times better than their existing benefits! People often fear what they don't understand. Coincidently, someone mentioned plumbers in LED and just yesterday I tried the following innovative offer out on a visiting plumber: I'll develop you a web page for free and you only pay for each person that contacts you via this page. I even allowed the plumber to specify his own amount for the fee. His response was negative, using that well known (UK) apathetic response: "I'll bear it in mind". This was despite admitting earlier that he's always willing to take on new customers: Crazy! Kind regards Adam Bostock, Innovation Consultant Acro Logic www.acrologic.co.uk ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Greg Watson Subject: SEO pricing > It's not that you're crazy or that your client is crazy. > It's that they don't understand the value of marketing > a site properly. - Renee Kennedy, LED 1988 First, there are only two basic pricing strategies. You can either have a discount mentality or a value mentality - and for all practical purposes, you can not have it both ways. Either you sell yourself on the basis of a discount or you sell your value. That said, I disagree with Renee's generalization (and that of a few others) who tend to characterize some potential clients as stupid or not understanding. While educating clients about value is an essential part of a sales process, there are times where the value of your work does not equal the value of your time. Let me rephrase that ... There are times when the value ***to the client*** is less than the value ***to you of your time***... Let me provide an example. I work with a fantastic programmer. On one of my commercial websites when he quotes me a $450 fee for a programming modification, I always know it's a bargain (the value to me is more than the $$ he quotes), and that I'm probably going to recoup it in 2-5 months and its pure profit for the next 2-5 months (in most cases the life value of an enhancement for me is about 6 months). I am always happy to pay whatever he quotes me no questions asked. However, he also does a lot of work for me on my non-commercial (typically non-profit group) websites. He knows that the "value" of that work to the non-profit client is pretty close to zero. He always quotes me a fair figure for the non-profit work (not $0, but pretty cheap) - the tradeoff is that he gets the work done on his own schedule "when he has a chance to get around to it" which is usually 2-4 months later - the value to the non-profit is little to nothing (at best) and if they had to pay for it themselves it would never get done because it would not be worth it. Now as his client, I *know* what the **value** of his work is to me - in one case it is worth his top billing price; in the second case the **value** that I am willing to exchange is pretty close to zero. So it is not appropriate to say that I as a client don't understand the value or that I am stupid or that I am cheap ... It is important to understand that value is based on the benefits received. To the client, the value is the benefits they receive from your services. To you, the value is the monetary compensation you receive for your time. Those two value calculations are different and separate. The goal of sales is to bring these two value calculations to a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange. There often are clients that may want something; but if the value of your time **to you** is more than the value of the benefits **to the client** - then it is necessary to respectfully walk away. Greg Watson ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2005 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer |
