| LED Digest 1809: Dummy Clicks and PPC Providers |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam,led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com ................................................ May 25, 2004 Issue #1809 ................................................ .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Third Tier PPC Providers - Worth It? ==-- ~ Sandy Galvin "Our experience with 'other than' PPC providers has been exceedingly poor." --== To PayPal or not to PayPal ==-- ~ Kenny Lau "...the beauty of PayPal is that it is simple to sign up and to administer..." ~ Dave McClure "...many folks don't understand all the options available to them when using PayPal." ~ R Bass "Paypal is definitely giving the old boys a run for the money!" ~ Eva Rosenberg "I find that when PayPal is the only option, my tax professional clients back off." --== Credible SEOs and SEMs ==-- ~ Steve Pronger "...an SEO's task is to increase traffic to your site for targeted keywords..." ~ Kathy Wilson Anderson "To be fair, compare services to services." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== Outbound Links Increasing Rankings ==-- ~ Simon McArdle --== Experiences with BizRate.com? ==-- ~ Mark Roberts ===== CONTINUING ================================= From: Sandy Galvin Subject: 3rd Tier PPC Providers - worth it? > While the Pay Per Click advertisement market is dominated by > Google and Overture, there are a number of smaller providers out > there and I was wondering if it is worth spending money on them. - Abu Haider, LED 1808 We were an early adopter and remain a heavy user of PPC advertising (about US$40,000 per year). Our categories are narrowly defined and are limited to about 20 really good keyword phrases and another 40-50 broader or more marginal ones. Our experience with "other than" PPC providers has been exceedingly poor. Indeed, even our experience with Overture was that it was not very useful as a stand-alone, but only because of it's relationship with the big four (Google, Yahoo, AOL, and MSN). One of the biggest problems seems to concern the PPC's relationship with the contract sites that use their technology. Some of these, it seems to me, must find it profitable to dummy click on their own engine when times are slow (for which they receive part of the revenue). We monitor the sources of our traffic quite carefully, and can usually see the single page clicks that immediately bounce away. In the past, we seemed to have particular problems with Sprinks and Ah-Ha. Whether this is such a problem with Overture and Adwords is harder to tell, though we see an awful lot of Bouncing Hits from "searchscout" which is related to Overture/Yahoo. The PPC services always claim that their technology and policing is intended to prevent this, but if you ask me, this is a class-action suit waiting to happen. When someone at one of the big stores figures out how much of their PPC advertising is being snitched, watch for fireworks. In the meantime, using "other than" PPC sites may be useful for us around Christmas when the ROI is much changed by people's willingness to buy, but it doesn't work the rest of the year, even for narrowly defined search terms. If MSN or AOL were to develop proprietary PPC engines, we would certainly use them -- otherwise, It's Overture and AdWords with an occasional nod to Findwhat. It's not how cheap the clicks are; it's where they appear. Sandy Galvin Barclay Blocks http://www.barclaywoods.com ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Kenny Lau Subject: PayPal or CC > A question we are often asked is "Should I use PayPal or > credit cards?" ... PayPal or Credit Card. What experiences > do you have moving from one to the other, or taking both? - John Smart, LED 1807 I offer both payment options on my web site (PayPal and credit card), and 90% plus of the business goes through credit cards. However, the beauty of PayPal is that it is simple to sign up and to administer (absolutely no paper forms to sign up, and the rates are reasonably low so that there is little need to haggle with the service provider on preferential rates, which anyway is hard to get if you are a small or start up business). There are also no monthly fees. For the consumer, PayPal actually protects credit card information better, and the consumer only needs to register their credit card with PayPal (the credit card info I suppose will be under very tight security), and for all transactions they only need to use one or more of their email addresses. Another advantage of PayPal is that for every transaction undertaken, an instant notification by email will be sent to the account holder, and all transaction history is at one's fingertips on the computer. There is no need to wait one month for a statement to arrive by mail, only to find out that one's credit card has been used illegally by someone else. Kenny Lau Burnaby BC, Canada www.ecopurewater.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Dave McClure Subject: PayPal or CC (full disclaimer: i work for PayPal, to help handle technical education about our products) > This all leads back to the question I get asked by > clients -- PayPal or Credit Card... - John Smart, LED 1807 just to clarify, there are really a couple of different questions bundled together there: 1) as a seller, should i offer PayPal as a: 1a) payment solution or 1b) payment option for buyers? 2) as a buyer, should i use: 2a) any of the payment methods available via my PayPal account, or 2b) use a credit card directly to pay for my purchase? In #1, note that businesses can offer PayPal using either of these methods: 1a) as a payment solution: to process all their customer cc transactions (as well as PayPal / bank acct payments), or 1b) as a payment option: to process PayPal payments, while still retaining a merchant acct for processing cc Many small and medium-sized businesses use PayPal as their entire processing solution (as in 1a), particularly now that PayPal no longer requires buyers to signup for PayPal to complete their transaction. We now offer an optional signup to buyers, *after* they make their purchase -- aka "PayPal Account Optional". more info on this option: http://snipurl.com/6nb9 [paypal.com] At the same time, many medium-sized and larger businesses, who may already have a merchant account for processing credit cards, have decided to offer PayPal as an additional payment option (as in 1b, sort of like another credit card). Since PayPal has over 40 million accounts out there, there's now good reason to help make it easy for that audience of buyers to make their payments online with PayPal. more info on that option: http://snipurl.com/6nba [paypal.com] re: John's comment about Amazon -- there may be other reasons they haven't offered PayPal as yet (eBay, PayPal's parent company, does compete with Amazon in certain online retail areas), but I agree they may even find reason to take PayPal for payment at some point as the PayPal customer base continues to grow. On the buyer side in #2, note that customers who choose to use PayPal can *still* choose to use their credit card(s) to make a payment, as well as make bank payments or PayPal balance payments. One of the reasons many customers like this is that they don't have to re-enter their credit card information on multiple merchant sites, and can keep all of their financial info private with PayPal. However, they still have the flexibility of using their credit card, bank account, or PayPal balance to use as payment methods. In summary, I'd rephrase the question -- it's not "PayPal or Credit Card", but rather "Credit Card *only*, or Credit Card + PayPal". When framed this way, most folks will realize that they'll make more money by giving their customers additional options to pay in whatever ways they want... Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but many folks don't understand all the options available to them when using PayPal, either as a buyer or as a business. For a good overview of different ways to use PayPal, you can visit our Merchant Tools area here: http://snipurl.com/6nbc [paypal.com] or check out our basic merchant overview guide: http://snipurl.com/6nbd [PDF file; paypal.com] regards & hope this info is helpful, dave mcclure paypal developer network www.paypal.com/pdn ------- new post - same topic ------- From: R Bass Subject: Paypal We have direct merchant accounts with Visa/MC and Amex; we also take Paypal. Paypal has it all over Visa and Mastercard because our clearing house, Ipayments Technology, puts a monthly cap on how much we can accept in charges, once the limit for the month is reached there is a 5% surcharge on all additional transactions, on top of the regular discount rate. Ipayments Technology told me that is the way they do business, with everybody. The logic of limiting a business that way eludes me. Inasmuch as our limit has not changed in the six years we are doing business with Ipayments Technology and naturally our goal is to increase the business, we feel they are stifling us. Thus we encourage our customers to use Paypal instead as Paypal has no limit. Our limit is in the high five figure range yet every month for the past four years we have exceeded the limit en toto and Ipayments Technology has refused to raise it without "escrow" money, which they will hold for six months, non interest bearing and continuously revolving. Had Paypal existed with their shopping cart system, I never would have gotten involved with Visa and Mastercard directly. American Express has no limit so we also encourage use of that card, same as Paypal.There is no charge to set up a Paypal merchant account, while regular credit cards charge whatever they can get to set up the accounts. You should also be aware that Paypal works with two systems, it is up to the merchant which to take. One system allows for payments via credit card OR by direct withdrawals from the member's bank account; the second system allows only for direct withdrawals from the bank, credit cards are not accepted. We subscribe to the second system, most paypal members give Paypal access to their bank accounts. These are known as "Verified" members. Verified members also get a rating similar to eBay's rating system, we only accept Paypal from verified members and we have never had a chargeback or any other kind of problem with a Paypal payment. Furthermore, there is no time delay on payments with Paypal as there is with credit cards. The moment a customer pays with Paypal the money is available to you; with a credit card there can be a 2-5 delay to receive the funds, with foreign it is even longer. Paypal is definitely giving the old boys a run for the money!! R Bass, Webmaster Jewelex.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Eva Rosenberg Subject: PayPal or CC I find that when PayPal is the only option, my tax professional clients back off. They all have credit cards and don't mind using them online. Having to go through the hoops to open a PayPal account turns them off. Some of my international clients have problems because PayPal doesn't really operate in their country. So they can't take money out - only pay in. So, if you're dealing with sophisticated customers, international clientele and higher ticket items, you need to be able to accept credit cards yourself. However, to have your own merchant account can be costly. In fact, I really need to look at my bank statements and analyze just how much it's costing me. I know it's getting to be really burdensome - and it may be time to change my providers. For instance: --------------------- Authorizenet/gateway fee: $25.00 Merchant account/statement fee: $20.00 or 25.00 Transaction fees for failed transactions: $ 5.00* Various charges that make no sense: $10.00 ==== Total, about: $60.00 per month, fixed costs --------------------- *(One month, we had over 200 automated spammed transactions to the account and were charged for each one. We wouldn't have been charged on PayPal. But it did result in an extra security tool for all the merchants using our shopping cart provider. ) Our merchant fees have risen from about 2.75% per transaction to about 5% (fully burdened, with all the fees). However, our money appears in our bank account within 24 hours. Dennis Gaskill, of BoogieJack.com overcame all the fees by opening an account at his credit union: http://snipurl.com/6nbg [taxmama.com] Maciej Szleminski of redlinegoods.com swears by http://www.2checkout.com/home.html - aside from the set up fee, they have no monthly minimums, but the merchant rate is 5.5%. They don't say, on the above page, how long it takes to get your money, but I think I remember reading that it was once a week. Not sure. Customers can use their own charge cards without having to join a service and jump through hoops trying to identify the three tiny transactions that hit their bank accounts - to prove their identity. The thing I like about the PayPal and 2CheckOut-type options is that you can tie each fee directly with each transaction. With most regular bank merchant accounts, you get these statements that have a variety of different fees. They are difficult to connect to each specific transaction. Most people never even bother to reconcile the details on the statements and simply trust the banks. But banks make errors. If you're doing volume, who has the time for such in-depth reconciliations? The cost of them to do those reconciliations is prohibitive. Even I don't do them in detail - and I am accountant - I know how (and why) to do them. That's why I am thinking of moving my accounts to something more like 2CheckOut.com or similar. While the individual transaction fees may be a little higher, I have a sneaking hunch, the overall monthly fees will be lower. I'll be looking into it this summer. Best wishes Eva Rosenberg Where Taxes are Fun www.taxmama.com ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Steve Pronger Subject: Credible SEOs > ... will [the SEO] sign a contract whose only payment > will be a percentage of your increased profits? - Bill Davison, LED 1807 That's a little unrealistic don't you think Bill? Surely an SEO's task is to increase traffic to your site for targeted keywords, not to convert that traffic to sales. That's the job of your copywriter / web designer. SEOs likewise have no control over the many factors that relate to the profitability of a business. You are paying them to deliver targeted traffic to your website. If that objective is achieved, at a reasonable cost, then the investment was justified. But as any website owner knows, increased traffic doesn't always mean increased profits. An SEO is not a miracle worker and traffic is only part of the picture. Steve Pronger http://www.stevepronger.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Kathy Wilson Anderson Subject: Credible SEOs > Where can I find an industry standard or required > credentials that I can use to validate a potential SEO? - Clint Whitsett, LED 1804 I understand Clint's frustration at not being able to easily pick a SEM or SEO to assist him with marketing his website. However, in his post he is comparing a product to a service. It's much more simple to create industry standards for a tangible product than it is an intangible service. To be fair, compare services to services. For example, where do you find industry standards for consultants or website designers? In most service based industries, there may be codes of ethics, but these are typically voluntary and have little or no "teeth". Unless the service is licensed by some governmental agency, there is no viable standard for a service. The reason that there are no industry standards for SEM or SEO is because it's a service, not because of any wild west mentality. Love, Kathy Wilson Anderson http://www.under-one-roof.net ==== BILLBOARD ==================================== From: Simon McArdle Subject: Outbound links > After doing linking campaigns for a couple of clients, I noticed > that pagerank seemed to increase as soon as I put outbound > links on the site, long before any number of links could be > reciprocated. > This is contrary to how Google's descriptions, and all > of the "expert" opinion that you read... But I saw it. - Dave Roberts, LED 1808 Hi Dave, As an engineer you are more than familiar with scientific process to prove or disprove a point. Whilst I do not disagree with your findings it is impossible to evaluate your results based just on what you saw. Can you please detail the experiment that you carried out regarding outbound links. Please include the controlled site details as well so we can see that the comparisons are like for like. As you can appreciate without detailing your experiment using proper tried and tested scientific process you are just adding to the hype that you set out to counteract. The search engine optimisation industry can seem like smoke and mirrors to most people. The reason for that is because it is often the blind leading the blind. Someone says something in a forum and before you know it... that is the 53rd element of Google's algorithm. Prove your point Dave! Regards, Simon McArdle The Logo Company http://thelogocompany.net ------- new post - new topic -------- From: Mark Roberts Subject: Has anyone feedback on BizRate? Always looking for an opportunity to advertise. Recently ran across a service call BizRate.com. I was wondering if anyone has had any good / bad experiences with them? Mark Roberts Roberts Computing Systems http://www.robertscomputing.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2004 Adam Audette. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "There is only one permanent remedy for any critical situation: We must outgrow it. The moment we are bigger than the problem, it ceases, and can never return." - Manly Palmer Hall |
