| LED Digest 1822: The Email Discussion List Model |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam,led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com ................................................ June 17, 2004 Issue #1822 ................................................ .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= <Moderator Comment> ~ Lots 'o posts... --== The End of I-Sales ==-- ~ Pat McCarthy "...it is hard to generate a lot of revenue directly from a discussion list." ~ Veronica Yuill "...it's getting more difficult to communicate via this type of list..." --== Using Affiliate Services ==-- ~ Brad Waller "...affiliates are a great tool, but you need a good product for them to sell..." --== What are Alexa Rankings Worth? ==-- ~ Shari Thurow "...Alexa measures none of [the important] conversion points." --== Google AdSense ==-- ~ Peter D'Aprix "...sometimes the [AdSense] ads have nothing whatsoever to do with the page content..." --== Google's Image Search ==-- ~ Kathy Wilson Anderson "Why would anyone want their images to be indexed by a search engine?" ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== ShareYourExperience Scam? ==-- ~ Sheryl Coppenger ~ Noah Price ===== CONTINUING ================================= <Moderator Comment> Lots of responses have come in re "The End of I-Sales" thread. Great stuff, very interesting reading. Just wanted to let you know that it'll take a few days to get through these posts, but all of them will see the light of day! Thanks for the insights and comments. Best wishes, Adam | adam, led-digest.com --------------------- From: Pat McCarthy Subject: End of I-Sales > I'd really love to hear your thoughts - not just on the fate of > I-Sales [and the other I-Lists], but on the bigger picture here. - Adam, LED 1821 The end of I-Sales and the other "I-Lists" is a sad event in some ways, because they were something that I often looked forward to and learned from. However, I don't think it's an accurate indicator on the health of the e-mail discussion list model. First, as Adam and many of you may know, it is hard to generate a lot of revenue directly from a discussion list. It's not impossible, but it's difficult. Thinking you're going to get rich from running a list alone is probably a pie in the sky idea. But, I think the I-Lists failed simply due to what became a constant change of business models for the lists, the company running the list change it's name and address numerous times, and the turnover of moderators. A list needs consistency. People need to know what the rules are, what address they should whitelist, what address they send posts to, and who's going to be reading and reacting to those posts. With I-Sales it seemed like the focus moved more towards what the company running the list was trying to do to figure out how to run it successfully instead of talking about actually ecommerce issues. I seem to remember more conversations on the business model and who the moderator of the day / week / month was instead of any valuable information I gleemed from it. I'm not trying to pin this on Andy Bourland or his employees. Without knowing the business numbers it's hard to criticize what they were trying to do or accomplish. I do know though that I think they would have been better off keeping the business name the same, trying to find a moderator who could do the job and stick with it, and keeping the same addresses and focus. If those things had happened, why wouldn't it still be alive today? As Adam pointed out, LED is going just fine. Pat McCarthy Palo Alto Software http://www.paloalto.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Veronica Yuill Subject: End of I-Sales Hi Adam, > A nearly identical message followed announcing the demise > of I-Search. Are the other lists they publish headed for the same > fate (I-Copywriting, I-Design, etc)? Yes -- I shut up shop at I-Design a couple of weeks ago, due to the same kind of problems as I-Sales and I-Search :-( > Is this email discussion format we all know and love going the way > of so many other extinct communication delivery technologies? Here's what I said (in part) in my sign-off message: "The world has certainly changed since Issue 1 [in June 2000] -- perhaps email discussion lists like this one have had their day, swamped in a growing tide of email, most of it unwanted. Of the half-dozen discussion lists I used to receive, the only one that still drops regularly into my inbox with no diminution of content is the LED Digest -- which is also the first one I subscribed to, back in 1997." Yes, a free plug! <g> Certainly I think it's getting more difficult to communicate via this type of list, not just because of spam but because of the growth of topic-specific blogs and RSS newsfeeds. Many people are now getting their fix of up-to-the-minute news and discussion by visiting sites like these. But LED itself proves email can still work when you have a committed community and a long-standing brand. As for the Adventive lists, I think even Andy would admit that 3 name changes, a redesign, 2 changes of subscription model, and a switch to HTML-only and back again left both readers and moderators feeling bamboozled! The lists had been doing fine up till that point, and it was only when the lists themselves changed their names (from I-Design to MarketingVOX|Design for example) that I really noticed a catastrophic drop in participation -- I think readers simply didn't recognize it in their inboxes any more. And incidentally, despite the apparently inexorable rise of HTML email, I was swamped with complaints when the text version was withdrawn, so it looks as if LED is doing something right there too! Regards (and long may LED continue!) Veronica Yuill Archetype Information Technology Ltd http://www.archetype-it.com/english/ veronicay, archetype-it.com ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Brad Waller Subject: Affiliates > Has anyone advertised with affiliates like CJ, Performics, > or Affiliate Fuel in a pay-for-sale arrangement...? Did you find > affiliates to be a successful component of your marketing strategy? - Ellyce S., LED 1820 Ellyce S. asked about using affiliates to sell. Basically, affiliates can be your "commissioned salesforce". Of course, this sales team is only as good as the training they get and they can only do so much with what they are trying to sell. What I'm getting at here is that affiliates are a great tool, but you need a good product for them to sell, and you have to help them sell it to be successful. Commission Junction and the others are the tracking solution that allows you to more easily set up relationships, track sales, and pay affiliates. This works very well for many companies. They have great products and active affiliate managers who know how to sell and how to help others do so. It takes a lot of work to make an affiliate program worthwhile, and you need to be prepared for it. You also need to be prepared for the idea that you are reducing your margins. If you have management to report to, how do you answer when they ask why they should be giving away profit for these sales. Will these sales just take away from your existing sales channels, cannibalizing your margins, or will they be new, additional sales? How are you going to make sure they are new sales? I could go on for hours (in fact, I have a three hour talk on this subject that I give at conferences), but I think it is time to give you some material to read and some links. Visit this page I set up after a talk a year ago and you can download my charts, a couple of reports, and find links to sources: http://ep.com/b/AF2003.html. In my talks I emphasize that there is no one right way to run an affiliate program, and that what works for me may not work for you. My charts have a number of questions you need to answer before you sign a contract with a service provider or network. Brad Waller http://ep.com/ waller, ep.com ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Shari Thurow Subject: Alexa rankings Hi all- This is in response to Ken Evoy's post in LED #1821 regarding Alexa. It appears Mr. Evoy and I have opposing viewpoints on the value of Alexa rankings. I did read Mr. Evoy's article defending the value of an Alexa ranking. Needless to say, he still did not convince me of its value. Here is why. According to Mr. Evoy, the number of visitors to a site is an indication of its success. I do not agree with that assessment - unless your site is a publishing or search site where the number of eyes on ads generates revenue. Still, the number of visitors on a publishing site is a micro-conversion. What about the number of page views per visitor? What about the number of subscribers (if the publisher has an email newsletter)? The ratio of new subscribers vs. people who unsubscribe? And that is just a publishing site. What about B2B or B2C sites? The macro-conversion of a B2B site is often a sales lead, and the macro-conversion of a B2C site is a sale. Does Alexa measure these conversions? No, Alexa measures none of these conversion points. A site can have a few hundred visitors a month and a high conversion rate. A site like that is successful. A site can have a lot of traffic and a low conversion rate. That type of site might or might not be successful, depending on the industry its in. I guess I am just tired of Internet marketers treating Alexa and search engine rankings as an indication of success. A high Alexa ranking does not indicate that a Web site is making millions of dollars. Neither does a #1 Google or Yahoo ranking. And I'm a search engine marketer - I understand the value of search engine visibility. I just want people to get real with their sites and their Web analytics software. Behavior tracking is to be more important than any other online marketing strategy I've used. Not Alexa. Best wishes, Shari Thurow, Webmaster/Marketing Director ~ Search Engine Visibility book now available http://www.searchenginesbook.com/ ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Peter D'Aprix Subject: AdSense > I can't get ANY Adsense ads to kick in for the home page... > any other page usually loads of four ads a time as expected... > but the homepage has none... - Dirk van der Werff, LED 1820 When I visited your site, the Google space on your index page was filled with a public service ad as follows: Join ICYE Promote International Youth Volunteering & Intercultural Learning For a period of time after I signed up, a similar public service ad appeared that had nothing to do with my site or its content. After a while it was replaced with the normal column of up to four "petits annonces" as they call them in France. I am wondering if Google uses the AdSense program for some public good from time to time even if it does not strictly adhere to the stated functions of their advertising for AdSense. I have found with the program, that sometimes the ads have nothing whatsoever to do with the page content which visitors to the page may find a bit confusing. On the other hand, as a food and travel site (URL below) and as food writers, many of the ads that have appeared have helped me, if not my page visitors, immensely providing resources for cooking products such as specialized oil oils etc. available for on-line purchase that I could not find with many searches of the internet. A little silver lining. What I have also found with AdSense, is that Google must spider my site more often since my page rankings with Google appear to have improved. For a small, boutique site that is a strong benefit. Perhaps by doing so, Google benefits by feeding more visitors to the site who in turn will provide more click visits to the advertisers' sites. I have been on the road in France for a few months and I have not kept up with LED Digest, so maybe many of these issues have already been addressed by other, far more well informed contributors. All my best with your site. Peter D'Aprix, Executive Editor GourmetVoyageurs - food and travel e-Magazine http://www.gourmetvoyageurs.com ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Kathy Wilson Anderson Subject: Image search > Is there any secret to getting images indexed [by Google]? - Tom Anson, LED 1821 I must be missing something here. Why would anyone want their images to be indexed by a search engine? It seems to me that anyone searching for them would be looking for images to use for their own purposes, and would not be wanting to purchase anything else from the website. For purposes of making images search engine friendly, I use ALT tags, the content of which is indexed by most search engines. Although the ALT tag isn't given much weight, I believe that every little bit helps in the intense competition of the gazzillion websites on the internet today. I also name the images with keyword rich names when appropriate, in the perhaps erroneous belief that the search engines will read the name of the image and will count that a teensy bit in their indexing process. For myself and my website clients, I sincerely hope that the website images aren't on any search engine index. That would make it all to easy for unscrupulous people to find them and use them without permission. I don't want to have to be putting yet another Javascript in my source code on all pages - this one to keep image theft from happening. Love, Kathy Wilson Anderson http://www.under-one-roof.net ==== BILLBOARD ==================================== From: Sheryl Coppenger Subject: Shareyourexperience > I'm wondering if any of you have any experience > or knowledge of shareyourexperiences.com. - Greg Robbins, LED 1820 I have received the message many times at several addresses (some that I don't even use and nobody would know about). IMO they're a scam of some sort. I'm postmaster at my site and block all of the following domains: share-experiences.us shareyourexperiences.net shareyourexperiences.com shareyourexperiences.org share-your-opinion.us When I look at the "Experience requests" on the web site for any of the ID's where I've been spammed, I get exactly 6 entries (just like your address). Quite frankly, if they have any "information" (more accurately, "gossip") about me I'm not in any hurry to find out about it. Even if genuine (which I doubt), I didn't like high school the first time around. I have no intentions of playing their game. Sheryl Coppenger ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Noah Price Subject: Shareyourexperience This is a variation on "Word of Mouth" which is discussed on Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/wordofmouth.asp . In short, they are counting on people paying to get the information someone is sharing about them, but the site only promises to put you in touch with the anonymous contributor. Based on the addresses where I receive these, it's pretty clear they're getting the addresses from web pages. Noah Price prxy Internet Services http://www.prxy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2004 Adam Audette. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "... we all know in our gut when we are maintaining integrity or violating it. It's been my experience that it is more rewarding, on many levels, to maintain it." - John Audette |
