| LED Digest 1828: Yahoodwinked! Yahoo's Poor Customer Service |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam,led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com ................................................ June 28, 2004 Issue #1828 ................................................ .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ====================== --== Yahoo's Poor Customer Service ==-- ~ Jim Girardeau "Has anyone else had similar issues with Yahoo's customer service...?" ==== CONTINUING ================= --== The End of I-Sales ==-- ~ Komra Moriko "The community did not value the lists enough to put their nickel on the line..." --== The End of Email as You Know It? ==-- ~ Joe Halbrook "The problem is, of course, the flawed SMTP protocol." ~ Ken Evoy "The ability to do something and change the course of who 'OWNS' e-mail is in our hands." --== Image Search ==-- ~ Rob Bishop "...look at the alt text of an image as another opportunity to drive traffic..." ~ Aaron Wall "Of course I have to be the crazy guy who has this example..." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== 301 Redirects ==-- ~ Shari Thurow ====== NEW ======================================= From: Jim Girardeau Subject: Yahoo's Poor Customer Service I manage a social service job site (SocialService.Com) and have been in business for about 7 years. I've advertised through various services of all of the major search engines, several banner ad services and many other avenues. I haven't had any recent experiences (last few years) as bad as the one I'm having with Yahoo. I submitted my site to be a sponsor in the B2B / Healthcare / Employment section of Yahoo's directory. Yahoo double billed me (US$100 total) and then didn't provide the service. So, of course I called them and asked for a full refund or two months of services. I didn't care which resolution was selected - either way was fine with me. They couldn't resolve my problem on the first call (odd) and said they would escalate the matter and get back with me. Three weeks later I called back with the reference # they gave me and was told that the reason they didn't call back was because they hadn't even looked at my issue yet! And they couldn't tell me when they would resolve it and get back with me. Has anyone else had similar issues with Yahoo's customer service, especially with category sponsorship services? How did you deal with it? Yahoodwinked, Jim Girardeau SocialService.Com ===== CONTINUING ================================= From: Komra Moriko Subject: The End of I-Sales Hi everyone... The end of I-Sales _is_ a milestone. I was a subscriber since 1997, so it has been a long and good relationship. I learned a great deal from I-Sales and I-Design over the years. And these lists helped me build a successful web design business. When the Audettes asked for subscriptions, I paid for mine. It was worth it to me. In the early days, as John Audette said, "We were almost tribe-like as we wandered through unexplored expanses." -- the community was different. There were discoveries to be made nearly every day AND the bubble added to the high spirits. Now it is changed. We are more experienced, less is new. We are looking for refinements, extensions and efficiencies in our internet selling skills. This is inherently less compelling. When the Audettes wanted to find a new owner for the lists, I raised my hand and became part of a consortium lead by I-Sales moderator, John Counsel of http://www.profitclinic.com -- long story short that did not work out. Then Andy Bourland bought the lists from the Audettes. I had the good fortune to work with Andy. He has heart and enthusiasm and a wonderful entrepreneurial spark. I was the person he put his faith in to create the new designs and deliver the technical implementations using LYRIS and MovableType, etc. As a result, I also had the great good fortune of receiving both kudos and flames from the I-List community. Andy invested a great deal of thought and money in these lists. He wanted them to be a better resource for everyone, and he wanted them to be a business that at least paid for itself. This was a tough job. I myself valued the lists and paid when subscriptions were asked for, but a great number of people did not. And in my opinion this is what ultimately caused I-Sales to go away. The community did not value the lists enough to put their nickel on the line, not for the Audettes and not for Andy either. Komra Moriko http://www.design4results.com ------- new post - related topic ------- From: Joe Halbrook Subject: End of I-Sales Hi Adam (and John, too!): > ... I especially loved I-Sales. Five days a week, 52 > weeks a year, at home, in Hawaii, in Dublin, sober, > after too many Guinnesses, I produced I-Sales. I > never got tired of it. I learned something every day... - John Audette LED 1827 > I think the rise of spam, and the tools to fight it, has also > contributed to declining participation in email newslists... - Richard Takaba, LED 1826 > How true, the collateral damage of spam filters from ISPs > has destroyed much. - Ann Beebe, LED 1827 Let's face it. There are very few assets like John and Adam Audette to make a truly unique and impressive email discussion list thrive. But, when it comes to spam and spam filtering harming such lists, consider this: Even though most spam filtering solutions offer whitelisting features, they still do heuristic testing on the content of incoming email, and will filter if enough "trigger words" indicate a high probability of unsolicited email. Thus, delivery fails, despite the best efforts of both the Sender and Recipients. The problem is, of course, the flawed SMTP protocol. The only viable answer for email publishers seems to be a method to "bypass the SMTP protocol altogether in the delivery to subscribers" but, without altering the way email publishers produce the content that we all cherish and benefit from. Better yet, deliver email content right to the desktop, removing the mail server (and all it's headaches) altogether. Sounds like a dream - but suggests a logical methodology, right? I thought so, and then I built the technology to do just that. There are still some finishing touches to be completed, but I'd love any feedback LED readers might be able to offer: The link to this new technology is: http://www.ez-feeds.com Much thanks, in advance. Joe Halbrook ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Ken Evoy Subject: The End of E-mail As We Know It? > How true, the collateral damage of spam filters from ISPs > has destroyed much. - Ann Beebe, LED 1827 Yes Ann, it has destroyed much. It's not just Roadrunner, it's every large ISP, mail service, filtering service (there are over 400!) who try to make a buck off spam... by selling anti-spam products / features that do not stop to worry about collateral damage, and that do NOT provide whitelisting abilities that work, and do not tell small businesses WHAT they are doing wrong. I loved reading John Audette's post today. Those were indeed heady days. Aloha to you, my friend. Based on what I'm writing below, I just may be joining you sooner rather than later. Times have changed, you're right. Up until recently, that excitement you describe has continued to grow within me because we see thousands of others pop THEIR eyes wide open as they "get the Net" and use Site Build It! to more than level the playing the field -- they use it to do what you and I did, John... live a life of passion and success on the Net. Seriously, I don't provide this URL as a plug because everyone here know about SBI! by now... http://case-studies.sitesell.com/ I use it to illustrate the happy, excited, successful folks who are about to be hammered, as are we all, if we don't do something about it now. The "anti-spam INDUSTRY" has grown into one that is putting BIGCO on one playing field and stiffs the rest of us. Well, we at SiteSell are sick of it and have recently released, free... http://deliver-my-mail.sitesell.com/ There's no promo, there's no upsell. Just information and templates that you would normally pay a lot for. I know, because it contains hard-learned information we've accumulated over the past years, months, and especially in recent weeks. We beat back a badly aimed Hotmail filter months ago, refusing their extortionary insistence that we register with Bonded Sender, a company run by, yes, you guessed it... former senior management at Hotmail and Microsoft! An earlier version of the program that is outlined in the "Deliver My Mail" site caused them to call us two weeks after they insisted the filter would never change to tell us that our mail was now getting through. You can do the same. We are now in a much, much bigger fight. And I don't just mean "SiteSell" because we have already taken the steps to send the victims (our customers) back to the appropriate break in the chain (i.e., those who are responsible, the ISPs / mail services / filters). The "Deliver My Mail" site will show you how to do the same... 1) at an individual level -- how you can protect your business, take the same precautions, and counter-measures (if needed) that we are doing 2) at a higher level -- how you can, how you must spread the word before it is too late. If everyone adopts this program, the pressure on the large ISPs, mail services, and filters will be intense. Individually, our voices are weak -- but together, they can be very, very LOUD. We must make that loud voice heard. 3) at the highest level -- if small business is not recognized as a partner in the fight against spam, one whose interests must be considered and not tossed aside as collateral damage, then we will launch a class action suit. Details and a form are on the site. Anyway, this is the most distasteful, spirit-breaking subject that I've ever written about. I'm not an activist by nature -- like John, I'm someone who got passionate about a medium that can set people free. But there are those around the corner with shackles. Most small businesses don't even see it coming. We didn't. We even shrugged off the hotmail episode as an aberration. Well, it wasn't. It's serious. It's coming. And it's going to knock you out of the box if you're not ready. I urge you to visit the site -- at a minimum, use it to protect yourself. Hopefully, you'll spread the word. And if you have been damaged by those who would make a buck by selling anti-spam software that they KNOW damages us AND yet do not permit customers to whitelist and do not provide small businesses with "why," then fight back and provide data for a possible class action suit. That last sentence is key. I have nothing against filtering -- it's a necessary evil and I accept being hurt by the occasional false-positive -- it is part of the cost of doing business, thanks to the spammers. But here's the problem... STEP 1) A customer wants AND expects a piece of mail. STEP 2) A non-spamming small business sends that e-mail. STEP 3) The ISP filters it out. STEP 4) The customer doesn't get the mail s/he wants. STEP 5) The ISP refuses to WHITELIST and deliver the mail and/or refuses to tell the marketing company what the problem is. I'm OK until STEP 4. Small business must accept that false-positives happen and we must educate our customers. We must review and make our own systems squeaky clean -- do you delete "dead addresses" from your lists, for example? However, as partners in the same fight against spam, the anti-spam industry must be just as cooperative and responsible... ISPs and mail services must provide customers with the ability to WHITELIST -- otherwise, hotmail, for example must stop advertising itself as a mail service. They must, instead, promote themselves as "a private network which has the right NOT to deliver mail" (which is the legalese they will feed you to avoid living up to their true, basic, responsibility). And filtering services must tell small businesses why their mail is being filtered -- otherwise, how does a small business fix the problem? They cannot hide behind the line "but that would tell spammers how to beat our system." Bull. Spammers don't come out of the woodwork to make themselves traceable, and spammers already know those answers anyway. I suspect that the answers would reveal how weak and arbitrary the anti-spam technology is, which is something we need to know -- of course, we will only know THAT if and when they start providing the answers they owe us. We're at a pivotal moment. The ability to do something and change the course of who "OWNS" e-mail is in our hands. But bad things happen, historically, when people say "it's not affecting me" -- to which, I can only add the word "yet." http://deliver-my-mail.sitesell.com/ Make sure YOUR mail gets through. Make sure your customers, affiliates, subscribers, receive it. Join your voice to others, to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of others... and do NOT let this happen. This is a wonderful group. I never thought about it before, but it is indeed the reincarnation of John's I-sales. It has a power and a sophistication that is known and respected. Please visit the site and if you believe in its contents... Spread the word. SiteSell cannot fight this fight alone. Ken Evoy, President SiteSell.com ------- new post - new topic ------- From: Rob Bishop Subject: Image search > ... can anyone offer an up-side [to getting images indexed]? And > if there is one, how does one get images indexed and ranked? - Tom Anson, LED 826 Well, we get hundreds and even thousands of visitors a month by them searching for a 'stuffed toy dragon' or even just 'dragon'. This drives people to our web site, and at times they become customers. If you look at the alt text of an image as another opportunity to drive traffic then you will see how an image search can help promote your specific chunk (niche) of the internet. Bear Hugs Rob Bishop Binkley Toys www.customplushtoys.com ------- new post - same topic ------- From: Aaron Wall Subject: Image search > Why would anyone want their images to be > indexed by a search engine? - Kathy Wilson Anderson, LED 1822 Of course I have to be the crazy guy who has this example, but I would imagine it would lead to lots of conversions for PORN SITES, and may also do well for sites like stock photography or logo design sites. aaron wall http://www.seobook.com ==== BILLBOARD ==================================== From: Shari Thurow Subject: 301 Redirects > Can anyone tell me how long it takes 301 redirects > to have an effect on a sites search engine listing? - Justin March, LED 1826 The answer is - it depends. How quickly a search engine will re-spider and re-index your site depends on its size. On a small site (less than 100 pages), it will usually happen within a month. For a large site, it usually takes 3 months. Though both my colleagues and I have witnessed some small sites taking a longer time to be indexed, and larger sites getting indexed much more quickly. Wish there were a definitive answer, but there isn't. 3 months is a reasonable time frame for a large site. One tip: 301 redirects are a solution for the spider-based search engines. They are not the solution to the human-based search engines, or directories. Remember to do reverse link look-ups to see how other sites link to every page on your site, beginning with your most visited pages. It's a great opportunity to send change requests and perhaps get better descriptions (and links) pointing to your new URLs. Best wishes, Shari Thurow http://www.searchenginesbook.com/ ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2004 Adam Audette. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "The way to get things done is not to mind who gets the credit for doing them." - Benjamin Jowett |
