| LED Digest 2287: Special Issue - SEO Lawsuit |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Registration from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. November 13, 2006 Issue no. 2287 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ===================== <Moderator Comment> --== Getting Sued for SEO Work ==-- ~ Ivan Jimenez "First things first, you didn't get anyone results." ~ Tom Clay "Non-compete agreements are difficult to enforce..." ~ Bruce Clay "...this nuisance suit is setting a very bad precedent for the entire SEO industry." ~ Tim Klimasewski "As a buyer of marketing services, I would be pissed if a vendor did similar work for a competitor." ~ John Wagner "Been there, done that (in another field). Here is the score..." ~ Michael Linehan "I'm just asking for the country..." ~ Dan Jeffers "[Settling] could leave the door open to other complaints..." ~ Chris Nielsen "I hate to see the legal system used as a means to blame another person for someone's problems." ======== NEW ===================================== <Moderator Comment> Since there was such a large number of responses to the "Sued over SEO" post on Friday, I thought it best to dedicate today's issue to the topic. Back to our regular programming tomorrow. Sounds like most are strongly in favor of the SEO. It will be interesting to see if this case goes anywhere. Does anyone know of any other (potential) lawsuits like this? Or instances like this? One thing that's difficult about this situation is getting all the facts straight. I hope the SEO who's being targeted will update the list soon. -Adam ------------------------ From: Ivan Jimenez Subject: Sued Over SEO > Apparently I am being sued by a previous client because I have > performed SEO duties for their competitor(s) and given them higher > listings on SERPs that my previous client used to dominate... - Anonymous, LED Digest 2286 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1342/55/ First things first, you didn't get anyone results. The work you did along with many, many other factors including (but not limited to) design, popularity, freshness of content and non-SEO source code affected the way search engines "viewed" the sites but it was they (the search engines) that rank websites. Your first step is to fully understand this. This will help you not only in this case, but in dealing with past, existing and future clients -- many seem to think SEO companies have a magic button that they can press to make their websites shoot to the top of the SERP, clearing this misconception will make you a happier, more stress-free marketer! Best, Ivan Jimenez Smarter Clicks Search Marketing Solutions http://www.smarterclicks.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Thomas W. Clay Subject: Sued over SEO 4 years? Ignore them. Non-compete agreements are difficult to enforce, and anything over 6 months or a year is practically impossible to enforce. Besides, you say that they didn't do anything to keep their site "fresh", which indicates a lack of "due diligence" on their part. Get a lawyer to write them a "get stuffed" letter. I use Pre-Paid Legal for situations like these. Only used them once, but it saved a huge hassle and a bunch of headaches for me. Tom Clay xmission.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Bruce Clay Subject: Sued over SEO First, this is hogwash. Ranking is like market share -- maintain it or lose it. Ranking four years ago was based upon search engine algorithms then, and competition then, and the client site then, and their popularity and freshness then, and to retain rankings requires attention to this and more. Since rankings are search engine specific, just algorithm changes mandate site revisions to retain rankings. Evolve or die. Second, four years ago? IMO there cannot be any reasonable expectation that you have given a guarantee that ranking then will last forever. If they stop paying you, except for contractual restrictions, you are free to continue your business and to earn a living. Unless you guaranteed that you would not work for a competitor for these four years, it is unreasonable to expect that you would abandon your right to prosper. They had the option to keep paying you, or to protect themselves with contracted terms, but without that they have no basis here. I am certainly not a lawyer, but in my personal opinion there is no reasonable expectation that you could not continue with your business established before they hired you long after they stopped your contract. I suspect the contract states your limitations and guarantees, and that is all that matters. Third, and more important, this nuisance suit is setting a very bad precedent for the entire SEO industry. It is unreasonable on every level, and I for one do not want to see this client win by default, and for others to expect to do the same. I understand that it is easier to settle than to go to court, but as I understand it (check with your lawyer) in a nuisance suit your legal fees may be recoverable from them. While I do not have a clear understanding of your contracted terms, this certainly appears unreasonable, and appears to be designed to harm you instead of recovering harm you did to them. Cover my expenses and I will testify on your behalf as an expert -- call me. Bruce Clay bruceclay.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Tim Klimasewski Subject: Sued over SEO Dear name-withheld, As a buyer of marketing services, I would be pissed (angry, not from over-consuming, for our UK friends) if a vendor did similar work for a competitor. In fact, I have a vendor sign a document that spells this out. It is completely unfair for you to develop specific knowledge on my dime and sell it to someone else. It will be viewed this way even if there is no relationship between the work you did for me and the competitor. The goal of the work was the same. Certainly time passage strengthens your argument, but a judge may need to decide if 4 years is long enough. However, you state that, "Every incoming job is required to sign a non-compete so I can work for their potential competitors, too." So what's the problem? You do the reverse of what I do. You clearly indicate that you have the ability to sell the same service to a competitor. It is a term of your service. Although I would not call it a "non-compete." That's what I do. It is more of a "free-to-compete." I would be happy to go in front of the judge with the piece of paper that says you told the original client exactly what you did and they hired you anyway. Why be intimidated. Get your lawyer and threaten to counter-sue. Tim Klimasewski, Marketing Manager spectracomcorp.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: John Wagner Subject: Sued Over SEO Don't sweat it too much. Been there, done that (in another field). Here is the score: IF you are incorporated you will need an attorney to defend the corporation. IF you are not incorporated and just a guy doing what he knows how to do best, the law protects you. NO ONE can compel you to stop earning a living by doing what you are trained to do. Training does not mean anything formal like a school or anything like that, most of us webmasters learned the "art" by doing and if that is how you learned then that is what you are trained to do. OR you could have gone to Harvard and hold a PhD in SEO, same result. The point is that no one can compel another person to stop earning a living, either by law or by fact. IF you are incorporated you do not need a high powered big shot expensive lawyer to defend you either, get a lawyer who charges modest fees to defend the corporation in front of a judge, simply present the case that this is your livelihood and it is my bet the whole case will be thrown out. If you are not incorporated you can defend yourself the same way, be prepared to prove to the court that this is your livelihood and you will have the same result. So called non-compete agreements are rarely upheld even if you signed one as you do not have the right to give up your right to earn a living in the eyes of the court. Everyone has the right in this country to earn a living. EVERYONE. And even if you try to relinquish that right the court will not allow you to do it. Keep a paper trail of every SEO transaction you do and every bit of contact the other side has with you. Save letters, emails, whatever. Record phone calls, state the time and date of the phone call on the tape and inform the caller that you are doing so. You can get records from the phone company showing the numbers that called you and who they belong to, match up your recordings with those IF it goes that far. Be prepared. Do not be intimidated, many a lawyer knows you don't know jack about the law and they try intimidation tactics to get you to back down. Don't fall for that, stand strong. In fact, if they continue to harass you ask the civil court for a restraining order against them. If you want to go at it without a lawyer then you have to do your homework. It is not fair, but what in life is really fair? If the other side's lawyer calls you, tell him nothing. You will never have to explain in a court of law what you don't say, only perhaps what you do say. So say nothing. Tell him you will meet him and court and hang up the phone. And then do that. Let the other guy run up the legal bills, you keep it short and sweet. John Wagner www.jewelex.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Michael Linehan Subject: Sued over SEO I can't give any comments really. I'm just asking for the country. I think anyone's comments could be enormously more useful if we had the country context, rather than assuming it's the US. The legal aggression makes that seem likely, but maybe it's not. Legal suits where 5% of the world's population carry out 95% of the world's legal suits (i.e. the US, in case someone doesn't know) is a very different matter than what will be relevant for Canada or other countries an LED reader may be in. Michael Linehan Marketing Alchemy <Moderator Comment> I believe this is in the US, Michael. -adam -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Daniel Jeffers Subject: Sued over SEO Use that attorney. Unless there is something contractual about long-term results, your former client doesn't have a real case. A good attorney should be able to get it dismissed. You could also settle, but that could leave the door open to other complaints, and it might affect your business model, especially in a fairly tight niche. Going it alone is probably a bad idea. An attorney will know what information needs to be presented and how to present it to get the best result. Much like you know how to present information to search engines. Dan Jeffers, Internet Marketing Specialist American Institutes for Research -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Chris Nielsen Subject: Sued over SEO What you do is up to you, but if you set up a legal defense fund, I will make a (small) donation. I did so for Aaron Wall (SEO Book vs. Traffic Power) and your situation is not much different. I hate to see the legal system used as a means to blame another person for someone's problems. You may want to contact Aaron and others (www.chillingeffects.org) to help you decide what is best for you to do. Since it sounds like you have positioned yourself well with disclosures and documentation, I think your case should be a slam-dunk in your favor, but I am not a lawyer, and you still have to deal with stress and the expense. If you have documented copies of the site after the work was done 4 years ago and what it is now, it should be clear what really has and has not happened with the previous client's site. I would not expect most competitive rankings to hold well for more than a year in general, and it's the reason we don't worry about rankings in our SEO projects. I suspect getting a copy of their web traffic reports will indicate either that their site traffic really has not been hurt much, or that it's been down for a long time and they just now noticed the slip in rankings. It would be nice if we could optimize a few sites and drive a top-ranking competitor down about 20 spots, but are you really that good...? :-) Where were their rankings exactly just before you started working on the other sites? If you decide to fight this misguided former client, you should document every detail and create a site about it (if your lawyer agrees). Your site will be well-optimized and may be found for many of the keywords that your former client is upset about, including their company name. I can contribute a few links from some of my sites. You can issue press releases and use other marketing methods to get your side of this story out there. Since lawsuits like this are all about degrees of "pain", you may not have a huge legal fund to fight with, but you can inflict marketing pain that should help level the playing field... Good luck, Chris Nielsen www.legal-search-engine.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2006 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr |
