| LED Digest 2293: Using Permanent Redirects Correctly |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Registration from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. November 21, 2006 Issue no. 2293 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ====================== --== Multiple 301 Redirects to the Same URLs ==-- ~ Moderator Comment "Are multiple 301's pointing to the same base URL a problem?" ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Is AdWords a Scam & Exploitation? ==-- ~ Steve Pronger "...SEO and SEM...are just processes that create effective websites." ~ David Swiggum "Apply the same criteria to success in business in general." ~ Nathan Holley "You've got a long way to go before you can jump into this forum and make any sense of it..." ~ Nancy Cardinali "...and I have to comment on my pet peeve..." --== Marketing Exclusivity ==-- ~ David Spahr "...the person doing the optimization work...is also bringing her knowledge into the project." --== Getting Sued for SEO Work ==-- ~ John Metzler "Higher search engine rankings are no guarantee of an increase in overall business." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== New Member Intro ==-- ~ John Smart <Moderator Comment> ========== NEW ==================================== <Moderator Comment> I've been doing some research on this problem but haven't found a satisfactory answer yet. Part of my work on the led-digest.com site is archiving past issues. I began by breaking them up into 2 major sections - by the year they were published and by topic. So far so good. When I started I thought I would have all the posts by topic on their own pages. Don't ask me why, dumb idea. Now I'm going through and consolidating these individual posts to more relevant and helpful pages by discussion thread. The problem is what to do with the old pages. I'm using 301 permanent redirects in htaccess to notify the SEs that these pages have moved and where they can be found. The glitch, if it's a glitch, is that some of the discussions run for 80 to 100 posts, which has created a few topics up to 100 pages deep. These I'm moving to single (or perhaps double or triple) pages. Are multiple 301's pointing to the same base URL a problem? When I'm done I'll end up with a several hundred redirects pointing to just a handful of new URLs. These are new pages so they haven't established much, if any, link citations. I just want to avoid 404's if I can help it. My take is basically this (but I don't know if it's right): For multiple URLs being permanently redirected to the same URL, the search engines want what's best for relevancy, usability, and the "human experience." So using lots of 301's for individual pages can't really hurt you, provided that you are truly using them in the correct way - which is to say notifying the SEs that the content has permanently moved and then providing the moved content in its new location. Thanks - sorry to steal the bandwidth here. Best wishes, Adam ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Steve Pronger Subject: AdWords > G'Day Folks... SEO - is it a scam and exploitation > of your greed, what do you think? (This should > put the cat amongst the pigeons) - Roger Hass, LED Digest 2292 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1366/55/ Robert, You quote a lot of figures in your post, but if these are meant to establish that SEO and AdWords are "scam and exploitation", sorry, I don't see the connection. > Good luck with your SEO, when I use specific search > term such as "PC-Bug Fixer" I'm always on top. So you optimised your site to be found in the search engines for "pc bug fixer". Perhaps you should look up what SEO stands for. You're actually using it. You have these keywords in the page title, meta description tag, keywords tag (even though it counts for nothing) and URL. You also have the words pcbugfixer, pc, bug and fixer in the anchor text which points to your site. The problem is, you've optimised for keywords not many people search for. Hence the lack of competition. Hence the relative ease in which it ranks for those keywords. You tell me, how people land on your site after searching those keywords? > Try a search for your web site name (without the > www and extension) and you get top ranking. So what? I get top rankings for "steve pronger" as well. But believe it or not, people don't actually search for that when they're looking for a website designer. They're probably searching for some hockey player and got the first name wrong. Potential customers rarely use the Internet to search for your business by name, unless you happen to be a recognised brand name. They search for information and solutions to problems. In your case, they are more likely to search for "pc repairs" using Google AU than "pc-bug fixer". Google AU and Google US do deliver different search results. You will get local traffic. As you say, you're a local business. Add specific locations to your targeted keywords and you will get targeted local traffic. Is this "scam and exploitation"? In response to your other points: > Point 1. - I'm in Sydney, Australia, so I doubt if anyone > from the USA or England is going to send or bring me > their "Computer" to my work shop to service it. Maybe not, but you can offer them a consultancy service. Your website says you do that, and the Web gives you the opportunity to sell your services globally. Why restrict yourself? I'm in Sydney too, but my last customer was in Dublin, Ireland. > Point 2. - Why would I now need top ranking > on an International Search Result? Apart from the reason above, you can "monitise" your traffic in other ways - affiliate programs, AdSense etc > Point 3. - Ask yourself these two questions > before you get sucked up with all the hype. Not sure what your two questions are, but hype doesn't bring home the bacon. Take this client's site - http://www.bestbusinessbuyes.com.au. Do you think she would rather be found for "Arwon Realty" (her business name) or "business broker", searching from Google AU. Or "Australian businesses for sale"? Hype doesn't achieve that. > Point 4. - Remember that having a Web Site, > is no guaranty of Success or Instant Riches. No argument there. But it can generate profits for local and global businesses alike, when built correctly. > Point 5. - Business success starts by doing a better > job and giving better service than your competitors! True, but your customers have to find you first, and not your competitors. How do your potential customers know you give better service if they didn't hear it word of mouth? Testimonials? Case studies? Articles and content which demonstrate your expertise and experience? Your website could be building trust with your visitors, but is it? > Point 6. - A Customers recommendation > is worth a $10,000 Commercial Advertisement. Can't argue with that. > Point 7. - There is no substitute for "Word > of Mouth Advertisement." True again, but why are you on the Web? What is it doing for you? If your answer is "not much", then perhaps you should take the blinkers off and understand that SEO and SEM (Adwords) aren't about scam and exploitation. They are just processes that create effective websites. Steve Pronger http://www.stevepronger.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: David Swiggum Subject: AdWords Grins reading Rogers post. :o). Sooooo scam and exploitation, eh? Apply the same criteria to success in business in general. Huge competition, must be 5 times more brick and mortars than business sites. High failure rate of upstarts. It's the world we live in. The point being, with SEO you have only a miniscule chance of success, but WITHOUT it you have no chance at all! Roger went to great lengths, in depth stats, references all over the world, and some interesting and entertaining word and number twisting, but the only item he needed to make his point was the Google search results page, the web stat line on each search you do. In my case "Results 1 - 10 of about 494,000 for chocolate labrador puppies." "Results 1 - 10 of about 40,100 for chocolate labrador retrievers." "Results 1 - 10 of about 741,000 for chocolate lab puppies." Roger, this is what makes it FUN! Today I have positions 1, 2 & 3 in these searches respectively. That means I did my homework better than the SEO's for the other 494,000 or 40.100, or 741,000 pages. What a kick! So take pride in what you do. And enjoy your results. Getting to the top is like winning our own version of the Olympics. It wouldn't be nearly the accomplishment if there were only a couple dozen competitors. So, chin up Roger, old boy. Your glass is half full, and if you really try, you can get a glimpse of the brass ring. Stargate Kennels now sells over 95% online, and I have travelled the US, coast to coast delivering my puppies, meeting new people, like being Santa Claus with puppy dogs. A crazy little business, but what a great life! Couldn't have happened without SEO. This is of course my personal site, but I have 4 other sites I currently manage, and probably 30+ others that I did the initial SEO on enjoying equal results, at least for a little while. I spend toooooo much time on the computer, so I am in the process of retiring, but the competition has been great in SEO, and the rewards even greater. And HUGE thanks to this list. Been an LED'er since the very early days. This is where I learned it all. Quite literally couldn't have done it without you! I've been tempted at times to skip an issue, topics that I already thought knew, or stuff that didn't apply to me specifically, but then a little gem would jump out of the blue and make my life a little better. So my advise to all you aspiring SEOs, open every issue, and read it to the bottom. You just never know when that tidbit pops up that makes you more successful. I'll still be reading! And here's hoping you achieve your #1 position, as long as it isn't chocolate labrador puppies!, you'll have to fight me for that one! David Swiggum Stargate Kennels http://www.stargatekennels.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Nathan Holley Subject: AdWords Let me respectfully point out, Roger, that "pc bug fixer" has a whopping 607 results in Google. Not exactly a phrase anyone cares about, sorry for that. Hey guess what - I can rank #1 for "kettle-o-fish wanna have some get 'er done". I'm working on all the word of mouth advertising now. Should be #1 real soon - love that word of mouth! Seriously - not trying to tease you too much here - but come on! Are you that naive? If so, go right now to the LED archives and start doing your homework. You've got a long way to go before you can jump into this forum and make any sense of it, at least by the looks of your post. Cheers, Nathan Holley kettles 'o fish -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Nancy Cardinali Subject: AdWords ... and I have to comment on my pet peeve: Roger has his browser / search engine SET UP to show 10 results per page. I have mine set up to show 100. This doesn't really effect his basic premise - just bothers "the you know what" outta me! Nancy Cardinali haroldmiller.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: David Spahr Subject: Marketing exclusively for clients > The legitimacy of any non-compete is based on the ownership > of the knowledge gained during the engagement. When I pay > someone for internet marketing help, they need to learn about > my business: customer personas, keywords, etc. We do testing. > We learn what works and what doesn't. There is a cost associated > with this work and this is what I am paying for. - Tim Klimasewski, LED Digest 2292 It should be noted that the person doing the optimization work on your site is also bringing his / her knowledge into the project. Further, that person's knowledge is probably more important to your ranking than the knowledge of your business that you provide or you would not be hiring them (although knowledge of your business is vitally important). That person is likely to use the same kinds of techniques to optimize your site as they would with anyone else's site. This, in itself, make the whole non-comp idea pretty shaky (I am not an SEO BTW). Further, it should be noted that there could be some copyright issues. If the SEO uses his original ideas on your site, his contribution to your site probably has copyright standing unless you have a carefully worded "work for hire contract" with them. Remember, technically they are not your employee. They are a sub-contractor. "Copyright Basics" says: --------------------- "Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright. In the case of works made for hire, the employer and not the employee is presumptively considered the author. Section 101 of the copyright statute defines a "work made for hire" as: - a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment or - a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. "The authors of a joint work are co-owners of the copyright in the work, unless there is an agreement to the contrary." --------------------- The important wording in section 2 is "if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire." When hiring an SEO this issue may have as much importance as any non-comp agreement. David Spahr * Stereoviews.com * Antique-Photography.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: John Metzler Subject: Sued for SEO work You put the phrase "taking away their business" in quotes. If this is what your four year-old client is basing their case upon, then my guess is that it will be thrown out by a judge. I'm not a lawyer, but am an expert at SEO. Higher search engine rankings are no guarantee of an increase in overall business. Their business practice is totally out of your control, which is why SEO's can never guarantee an increase in income or anything similar to clients. Plus, SEO is guesswork. Educated guesswork of course, but never a sure thing. Every reputable expert in our field will say the same thing. If the client wants to sue the party directly responsible for dropping the rankings, they should be suing Google. And I'd like to see them try that. John Metzler http://www.freshpromo.ca ==== BILLBOARD =================================== From: John Smart Subject: Intro > I've been reading LED for a few weeks and see many familiar > faces from I-Sales and other defunct Adventive lists. What a > wonderful community they formed, and I'm delighted to discover > that one thread of it remains. I was never on LED and only found > this out when Adam joined a list that I'm on. - Shel Horowitz, LED Digest 2292 Welcome Shel! Thank you for introducing yourself -- and what a good idea -- I think we should all do that. I know bits about some of the posters here from reading their web sites, and reading their comments but I think a chamber mixer type introduction is a really cool idea. Knowing who someone is may really help to understand the direction that their posts are coming from. What do you think Adam? Maybe one a week, we could have, oh, I don't know, maybe a couple of hundred words to say who we are and what we do / did? I think that could be really neat (my niece told me last week that no one says "cool" any more. I am trying to say "neat" instead, and yes, I do feel very old!) John Smart InternetDesign.com - A Human Touch in a Digital World <Moderator Comment> Definitely! If anyone wants to do this please feel free. It's a swell idea! (has that word come back into fashion yet?) -Adam ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2006 Orange Wheel, LLC. 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