| LED Digest 2316: Building a SEO Guide |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Registration from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. January 2, 2007 Issue no. 2316 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ===================== <Moderator Comment> --== Alt Attributes within Heading Tags ==-- ~ Stephanie Sullivan "I wonder about [the SEs] 'weighting' of those now..." --== An SEO Guide - is it Possible? ==-- ~ Mari Bontrager "My impression of SEO is about the same as my impression of national politics." ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Simplicity is Overrated ==-- ~ Tom Aman "...it is impossible to even buy a basic item - they are not made any more." ~ Shari Thurow "Everyone shares their education, training, and experience through their posts." ~ Nathan Holley "It takes courage to post as [Shari] does..." --== Google on Linking ==-- ~ Mary Findley "Word of mouth, cheapest advertising you can have..." --== New Years Thanks & Goals ==-- ~ Jill Whalen "There would be exactly zero value to rank...for such a generic phrase as 'email discussion list'." ========== NEW =================================== <Moderator Comment> Greetings, Hope it was a fun New Year for you. I spent it trying to sleep off the flu while fireworks rocketed our little neighborhood. Nothing like being sick during the holidays! yuck. I'm feeling more like myself now, though, and definitely looking forward to getting back to work. I have lots of projects planned and know 2007 will be a great year. Thanks for all the holiday wishes! I hope 2007 is a fantastic year for you. Adam ------------------- [this post originally ran in the SEM Google group on December 19: http://groups.google.com/group/SEM2/about?hl=en -ed] From: Stephanie Sullivan Subject: "Weight" of alt attribute in images within heading tags? ... I was wondering if anyone has evidence for or against the SE's "weighting" of the alt attribute on an image within a heading. The reason I ask is that there are methods people use to get good typography on the web that involve image replacement. That is, showing the image to sighted viewers, but allowing screen readers to see plain text. That said, I'm not in love with any of the methods. There's something wrong with all of them in my opinion... And so my thinking was, "that's what the alt attribute is for." It's for screen readers. If you're putting an image in the page, why not just place it between the h1 or h2 tags instead of text with a CSS replacement background. The ONLY reason I could think of that might make image replacement techniques valuable is if SE's put more weight on a plain text heading like this: <.h1>This is the heading with key words<./h1> Than it does on this: <.h1><.img xsrc="image/imagepath.jpg" alt="This is the heading with key words" /><./h1> Has anyone seen evidence in either direction? (I'm aware that SE's know people "stuff" alt attributes with key words, which is why I wonder about their "weighting" of those now.) Thanks for any opinions... Stephanie Sullivan http://violetsky.net -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Mari Bontrager Subject: SEO Guide [was: New Years...] > #5 See a rock-solid SEO (if you will) Goodie List develop > on the LED Digest. It will be a FIRST on the W.W.W., to date. > Give new webmasters-enterpreneurs a reliable, trustworthy > platform to find rock-solid info on this daunting subject. - Al Toman, LED Digest 2315 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1431/55/ Al Toman has a fantastic idea here -- provide rock solid SEO information to the public. I wonder if it could be done. My impression of SEO is about the same as my impression of national politics. "Lets see who we can get to believe us so we can take them to the cleaners." Yes, I agree that is totally unfair to those who endeavor to give their SEO clients good return for investment. But it is the "impression" I have had since SEO became a buzz word (or buzz acronym). I'm a cynic. Can this really be done? Can a gathering of SEO gurus agree on a basic platform of reliable, understandable information about the subject? Mari Bontrager "Just call me Granny..." http://www.grannysez.info/ ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Tom Aman Subject: Simplicity > [Don Norman] argues what consumers (of widgets, > of websites) really want is lots of fancy functions - even > while touting that simplicity is desirable. - Nathan Holley, LED Digest 2312 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1417/55/ My personal theory re complex gadgets (be they cell phones, cars, washing machines, etc.): In many cases it is impossible to even buy a basic item - they are not made any more. Yet many people have these complex items only because they want "bragging rights" (ever have a person brag that his cell phone takes pictures, plays MP3s, has 1000 different ring tones, slices, dices and even bakes bread), yet they often do not even know how to use the many of these features. How many people really need a cell phone that takes pictures? After the initial novelty wears off, how often would you actually use that feature (since a digital camera takes much better pictures)? The same is true of many of the extras on various gadgets - great for bragging but, except for a very few people, seldom used by most of the population. Personally, I want a cell phone to (are you ready for it?) just make and receive phone calls. I do not need any other features. But try and find one that simple. I have an adult son whose quest for several years has been a basic joy stick like those that used to be standard (i.e. small enough to hold in one hand with a simple stick and two buttons and trim tabs to adjust the stick center point). But joysticks now are usually quite large requiring a fair bit of desk real estate and do all kinds of other fancy things (and tend to break after a few months of hard usage). With regard to Web sites, I believe "simplicity" is a key factor, but by that I do not necessarily mean a simplistic, basic, text only site. For Web sites, "simplicity" means "simple to use" - i.e. navigation is obvious and desired information is located easily. The addition of "bells and whistles" should not change that and the choice of what to add should really be determined by the expected audience, not the designers desire to show off. Case in point - we recently moved to an area without cable so depend on an antenna for TV reception. I went looking at the major network's Web sites to get channel number information for this area. Of the various sites I visited, that information was only easily found on one site (3 clicks from the home page). For most of the others, I eventually gave up trying to locate the information and am still not sure whether or not it is even available on some of those sites. Visually, all of the sites had the same kinds of "bells and whistles", but only one included "simplicity" in the design. Tom Aman Aman Software http://www.cyberspyder.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Shari Thurow Subject: Simplicity Hi all- This is in response to Jerry Harvey's post in LED #2315 in which he stated: > Once again, Shari Thurow seems more interested > in posting about her own accomplishments and > misses Dr. Norman's argument completely. Nice insult. Not true, of course. I really dislike it when people put thoughts and words into my mouth without picking up the phone or emailing me to really ask what I meant. I did not miss Dr. Norman's point. Being a graduate student in human / computer interfaces (HCI) and a long-time practitioner of building user- and search-friendly interfaces, I probably know more about Dr. Norman's work than most people, including Mr. Harvey. When I met Dr. Norman at Northwestern University at the event, he was also conversing with another usability professional about audio usability. I just shut up and listened. It was a fascinating conversation. Dr. Norman is truly a brilliant man, IMHO. In my initial post, all that I wanted to point out was something that Nathan Holley and other LEDers might not have known: that Dr. Norman's specialty is not Web interfaces. I did not want anyone to take Dr. Norman's comments out of context. That was my post's intent. It wasn't to show off my experience, contrary to Mr. Harvey's false conclusion. I learned about Dr. Norman's specialties first hand, and (unfortunately for me), it was not initially a pleasant experience. Dr. Nielsen, on the other hand, has a great deal of experience, education, and expertise in this arena. I am more interested in hearing what he has to say about Web interfaces. In fact, I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Nielsen again at a recent Search Engine Strategies conference, and he was very gracious to spend some time with me to answer some questions I had about HCI. Sometimes, I swear people forget that I do build Web sites for a living. Yes, I am also an SEO. And I am also a usability practitioner. I know first-hand that "simplicity" does not necessarily mean not having "bells and whistles" on a Web site. Having usability guidelines as a starting point is always handy, but I've done enough usability testing, launching a Web site, SEO work, and analysis to know what types of sites tend to do well with "bells and whistles" than others. Sometimes, usability tests and Web analytics data contradict usability standards. Simplicity is also in the eye of the beholder. To some, a simple JavaScript rollover effect is simple. To others, it's one of the advanced "bells and whistles." That is why I enjoy the usability and information retrieval industries so much. I learn how and why people search, and I learn people's perception of what constitutes a useful, effective Web site. The whole point of having this LED community is to share, whether we agree with each other or not. I wanted to share my first-hand experience with Dr. Norman, and to make sure some people did not take his article and research out of context. Tough bananas if people think I'm showing off my education, training, and experience through my posts. Everyone shares their education, training, and experience through their posts. Sincerely, Shari Thurow Grantastic Designs, Inc. -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Nathan Holley Subject: Simplicity > Once again, Shari Thurow seems more interested > in posting about her own accomplishments and > misses Dr. Norman's argument completely. - Jerry Harvey, LED Digest 2315 I disagree. Although I've debated with Shari here in the past (hopefully impersonally and for the benefit of the list), I appreciate her posts and point of view. Sure, she's different and takes a bold stance on many issues. But when she posts you know she a) has taken the time to formulate her thoughts - she's a critical thinker from what I can see, b) she has experience to back her words, and c) she won't hold back on her honesty. To be frank, while I don't agree with her sometimes, I appreciate her very much. It takes courage to post as she does here on the LED. And I don't see her posting much at the popular "hang outs" (at all) so that says something - maybe that we're better off for listening and engaging her rather than throwing stones. Reading between the lines of Jerry's post, it's possible there were more personal remarks removed (Adam?) - if so probably to publish these points which I believe merit some attention: > Complexity and usability are not mutually exclusive. Incidentally this is something Shari pointed out earlier in the thread: > Simple doesn't mean boring... Making things clear is a huge part > of usability. Sometimes it is simple, and sometimes it is not. - Shari Thurow, LED Digest 2313 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1419/55/ So Jerry is really in agreement with her on this point. But I really liked this bit where Jerry said-- > Usability professionals are quick to distinguish the > difference between focus groups, where people talk > about products, and usability testing, where people > are given specific tasks to accomplish. It makes me remember why I need to "try" before I "buy." Mainly, because if I don't get my hands dirty doing the things I'll be doing I won't know how well the device / site / person / whatever meets my expectations; which is much different than thinking about what things would be neat in my consultant / device / site / service. Happy '07! Nathan Holley <Moderator Comment> For the record, yes there were several sections of Jerry's post that were removed prior to publishing. Adam -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Mary Moppins Subject: Google linking > Who you link to helps the search engines determine whether > you're linking out naturally or just trying to build up your link > popularity. I have seen evidence that Google has been evaluating > outbound links for years. - Michael Martinez, LED Digest 2315 Hi Michael, Interesting post about linking. My "partners" page gratefully ranks 4 on Google right now. My very uneducated guess is that my Partner's page is ranked because my site is ranked a 5 and the links I have there around 90% are quality links. I have been slowly, very slowly going back through the links to weed out those that have turned into nothing but massive affiliate sites. I still have quite a few to review again and eliminate. It's time consuming process. I have always try to link with high quality sites that I feel will bring interest and be of value to people but center around the home, cars, RVs in general. Yes I have some work to do letting go of the sites that are not revelant. This year I'm placing more focus on establishing links with Associations like the Wood Flooring Association where someone can find the websites of individual wood flooring manufacturers. Same thing with the carpet industry etc. People will return to your site over and over again if they know they can obtain the information there they need. And they will pass your site to others. Word of mouth, cheapest advertising you can have - beats click fraud anyday. That is why Michael, as you have said, that linking goes beyond doing it just for ranking purposes. Information is king on this internet highway, only this highway travels at warp speed. That is I would question why Kevin Houston would make the statement at the end of his post about his script "Good luck , it's free ---- But remember, you get what you pay for. ;)" I'm translating that to mean that I can't depend on this script to work since it's free. Why would I want to hire someone's services who cannot give away a free, workable solution to solve just one problem? If the solution is workable and it was given free of charge, people will wear out the path to their front door. Please accept my appologies if I'm wrong with this assumption but that is what I am gathering from this statement. If people had to pay for the free advice available my website I'd be out of business. I sell because the free advice works and they keep coming back for more information and products. Good luck to you as well, Kevin. There has also been a lot of discussion about trying to eliminate sp^m and the continued and ongoing problems with harvesting of emails. There is only one way to get rid of a majority of sp^m and that is to target the core of the problem, which is: sp^mers keep sending their ilk because people keep buying from them. Cut off the cash cow by educating the general public through press releases, newspaper articles, radio, TV etc and it will come nearly to a halt. Further people should be educated to not click the "yes" button when asked on a website if they would like to receive information from companies like theirs. I talk to a lot of people who still are clicking yes. Ireceive over 300 sp^am emails a day as I'm sure many of you do as well. I will venture to say most of the general public receive perhaps 20 to 30 a day so they are not aware of the extent of the problem. Issue a massive all out program to inform people of the real severity of the problem; re-educated them to do a search for what they are looking for whether it's male enhancement, casinos, cigars or whatever but stop buying from and responding to sp^m email. This problem isn't going to go away by circumventing it until you get to the core of the issue and that is only going to happen through educating the general public. When incomes drop from $200 to $300 plus a day to under $50 sp^mers will find other work. Education is the only means of ending this problem and the sooner word can be spread to the media the faster it will come to an almost halt. I don't think there is a way to stop it completely but it can be brought to a near halt. I cannot agree more with Al Toman's post today and whole heartedly agree. Thank you Adam and may God bless you with a successful and blessed new year. Mary Findley Mary Moppins http://www.goclean.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Jill Whalen Subject: Thanks and goals Adam, thanks for all that you've been doing with the LED. It's really gotten great over this past year. You said one of your goals for 2007 was: > To finish the led-digest.com site and get it > ranked for "email discussion list." I have to ask...why? Yes, LED is an email discussion list, but it is on a specific topic, i.e, internet marketing. Someone looking for an email discussion list might be looking for a cooking list, or a metal fabrication one, or a healthy living list, etc. There would be exactly zero value to rank in the search engines for such a generic phrase as "email discussion list." I would suggest a better goal would be to head on over to Wordtracker or KeywordDiscovery and find the numerous phrases people might be using if they were looking for an email discussion list specifically geared towards the subject that LED focuses on, and optimize for those phrases instead. That's something that will provide you with highly targeted traffic as well as additional subscribers. Good luck, and happy new year to you and everyone else at LED! Best, Jill Whalen High RankingsR Helping Sites to Be the Best They Can Be! www.highrankings.com SEMNE Exchange | Learn | Network www.semne.org <Moderator Comment> That is a great point. I was thinking about why I picked "email discussion list" as a goal... I think just because it's such a competitive phrase. Silly, I know, but seeing our little led-digest.com ranked for that would be cool! But you're absolutely right - not much value compared to something targeted. (And probably not too realistic, either.) I'll get to work with wordtracker instead. Damn pragmatism and ROI! :-) Thanks Jill, Adam ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2007 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "The way you see people is the way you treat them, and the way you treat them is what they become." - Johann von Goethe |
