| LED Digest 2325: Special Issue - Design Costs |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Registration from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. January 15, 2007 Issue no. 2325 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= <Moderator Comment> --== Saving Design Costs ==-- ~ Michael Linehan "[Be] specific in the proposal and budget [and set] clear boundaries..." ~ Adam Boettiger "...you're setting yourself up for this type of scope creep." ~ Brett Work "If you go over your internal budget, why is that [the client's] fault?" ~ Dan Jeffers "...consider just showing the client a chart or PDF of the navigation structure." ~ Renee Kennedy "The biggest challenge of the design process is getting the client to agree on visual elements." ~ Mark Whitman "This is one of the reasons I stopped developing websites for hire..." ~ James Miller "I always say that content is the most important thing in a web site..." ======== CONTINUING =============================== <Moderator Comment> As promised, here's a special edition with responses to Shari Thurow's post about dealing with client budgets. It's an interesting discussion, thanks for all the responses so far. There are still some posts waiting for tomorrow that didn't fit here. I've also got a bunch of other posts on different topics, so stay tuned for tomorrow's issue; should be all over the place with different topics (exactly the opposite from today). Hope it's a great week, Adam ---------------- From: Michael Linehan Subject: Saving Design Costs > I try and try and try and try to communicate this > to some of my clients. I want them to stay within > the budget, but some of them just insist on > unlimited iterations of various design elements. - Shari Thurow, LED Digest 2323 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1707/55/ Hi Shari, I'm sure you'll get more responses to this, so I'll just do one main point. I have found, over the years, that every time I think I've seen it all, some client comes out with a new bizarre twist on "how to misunderstand and distort the contract and the process". I address this each time by adding that point to my documents and verbal interactions - making the process increasingly and EXTREMELY specific. The workplan / budget is then written out so that each block of work has sub-sections of "You will, 1, 2, 3... Marketing Alchemy will 1, 2, 3...". I had one micro-business client, with a modest amount to spend. Their budget contained just two hours of planning time. They then asked for two meetings of four hours each. That's fine - but somehow that the extra time did not have to be paid for because I had said in the budget - Planning: $x. I combine being specific in the proposal and budget with setting clear boundaries and sticking to them - along the lines of, "I can do those six additional variations, but the budget said three. The six extra will be another $2,000." or sometimes, "This is how the process with me works, this is what is necessary on the Web, and this is what WILL be done." I find that as I become clearer and more authoritative in saying what will and will not happen, that the response is positive, not negative. For the rare one who just does not want to listen, I'm not afraid to "fire" them as a client (in a positive way), by finding someone more able or more inclined to work with that person's particular foibles. Anyway, I could go on. I hope that is of some use. It has worked well for me! Michael Linehan Marketing Alchemy www.marketing-alchemy.com -------- next post -------- From: Adam Boettiger Subject: Clients and Design Costs Shari I feel your pain, but my sense is that by not clearly defining deliverables in a signed Statement of Work at the outset, you're setting yourself up for this type of scope creep. What you need to do is do a written statement of work that is standard, then attach one or two addendum to it that address "What if" scenarios that you've experienced, what the added costs will mean to the client and how they will be billed. It is not your responsibility to provide additional work at no cost outside of what you originally agreed to deliver. However, if you don't clearly spell this out in writing and have the client sign off on it, they will take whatever they can get from you. So you normally include three iterations. What happens if they want more than three? Do you address this in your SOW? Perhaps something that states that additional iterations beyond three will be provided upon client request at a fixed rate of $500 per iteration, fees to be billed and received on final delivery. Additional iterations beyond three (3) will affect both the final completion date of the project and the total project budget. See if you spell it out like that, they know in advance that they need to pay to play. Not only that but if they do want more it will take you longer. Does that work for you? Adam Boettiger Internet Advertising & Marketing Consulting adam, adamboettiger.com -------- next post -------- From: Brett Work Subject: Design costs The first thing I try to do is get the decision makers involved immediately by asking them a few questions (related to the design - I ask a ton of other questions unrelated to the actual design to learn more about them, their business, their goals, etc...). 1. What will be the primary color for the site elements? Once I know this, I provide examples of secondary colors. If they have an existing logo and are going to keep it, this question becomes "What complimentary colors do you like to go with your logo" and give them examples. 2. What sites have you used that you like from a visual perspective? 3. What sites have you used that you like from a functional perspective? 4. What are your competitors doing on their site(s) that you like and dislike? 5. Do you prefer horinzontal or vertical navigation layouts? If vertical, left column or right column (maybe both)? Without these answers, how do you even begin? If you wanted an architect to design a house for you, wouldn't you expect him to ask things like how many bedrooms, 1 story or 2, eat-in kitchen, flooring materials, etc... Unless that guy is billing by the hour, he is going to want to know as much as possible up-front so that his first pass can can at least provide what you asked for from a layout point-of-view. It is their site, they should be the ones making the look and feel decisions. By getting them involved from the beginning, I know what they are after and don't try to push something else on them unless a certain element is important for a particular piece of functionality they want or conflicts with their site goals, target audience, etc. I also do all layout and design first and add functionality after the design is accepted and approved. Once approved, the client knows they can't start making changes to navigation structures (for example) without an agreement modification. If I present something that they don't like, I ask them why and ask them to make suggestions on what they would change. I then make those changes based on their feedback. They are involved in every step of the process. By doing this, they become acutely aware that every time they make a request, they can't just say "I don't like it" or "flip this around". Without their feedback, I don't move forward. I also have a clause in my agreement that for every day a request for feedback / content / etc.. goes unanswered, it adds two days to the delivery date. I have never had to deliver a project on the agreed date because of this. They know it, but they can't fault me if they don't provide me with what I need to complete the site. In the end, the customer paid you do develop a site. If you go over your internal budget, why is that their fault? Part of the relationship is about managing expectations. If you don't ask the questions and it takes 15 steps, that is your fault. If you ask the questions and the client does a 180 somewhere, then you need to have a talk about agreement modification. A reasonable business person will understand that changes in scope or changes in agreed upon design elements necessitate changes in the agreement. If they don't, I would cut your losses and move on. If they nitpick everything from the beginning, imagine what happens when traffic stats don't meet expectations, subscriber rates are lower than desired, abandoned cart rates are higher then average... That's a scary road to be on. In the end, it is their site and their money. Don't start a project without knowing exactly what they want. If they can't tell, then move on. I would also spend time learning about personalities of the decision makers, it will give you insight on how they are going to be months into the project. Brett Work -------- next post -------- From: Daniel Jeffers Subject: Design costs Shari, It seems to me the problem is that you're showing the client too many different things. Obviously, when you want to show clients design elements, you can't ever put actual text because, even if it's approved, they'll get into discussing it. Thus, lorem ipsum. Likewise, I would consider just showing the client a chart or pdf of the navigation structure. Once they have approved that, then introduce the design elements. When you want to show the look and feel, keep the navigation structure fuzzy. This may not be necessary with all clients, but it's amazing how many high-paid executives will completely drift off-topic in a meeting even when they are paying for everyone to be at the table. Dan Jeffers, Internet Marketing Specialist American Institutes for Research djeffers, air.org -------- next post -------- From: Renee Kennedy Subject: Design costs Hi Shari, I dealt with the same problem you illustrated for the 7 years when I had my own web design business. The biggest challenge of the design process is getting the client to agree on the visual elements. The way we learned to handle this problem was to set the expectations right up front and to have it spelled out in the contract. When I went over this portion of the contract with the client and through the contract negotiation process, I continually reiterated that the client had 2 chances to make changes to the design elements. After those two chances, they would be charged at a rate of $75 per hour to make any other changes. Also, as the project progressed, when I would show the client different renditions, I would say in emails things like: "Here are three concepts of what your site might look like, you will have two more chances from this point to make changes to these concepts." (Along with a lot of other stuff.) But I think putting it in writing every step of the way drove the point home. The client you have currently may be a lost cause, and you may have to cater to him, but in the future, you can address this issue by setting expectations up front and detailing it in legalese in the contract. (We had a lawyer design our contract and that was the best thing we ever spent money on.) Hope that helps, Renee Kennedy -------- next post -------- From: Mark Whitman Subject: Design costs > What do you do when people insist on too many renditions > of design elements, making the project launch date later than > expected, and going over budget? - Shari Thurow This is one of the reasons I stopped developing websites for hire (except for existing clients). Clients always put visual considerations above everything else. Strategic development, goal orientation, it's useless to dwell on stuff like that, clients primarily want a beautiful site (and it's usually a Champaign taste with beer money situation too :). Clients will try to snatch massive amounts of a developer's time (for free) tweaking visuals, it's a certainty. To deal with that, what worked well for me was the following approach. My agreements specified that for the price I quoted I would provide a custom designed layout of the site that incorporated professional grade graphical elements, strategic planning, SEO strategy, and custom programming into the mix. I would get as much info from clients as possible (including graphic examples if possible) to get close to the look they want on the 1st draft of a design. Requests for revisions are a certainty and have to be calculated into your initial time (and price) estimate for project. So I'd do a revision of the 1st draft as an expected part of the project, no problem. That would bring us to draft #2. If the client still wanted to play around with the visuals (and they usually do) after that, the client would be charged for that additional time at the hourly rate used to calculate the price quote. This has to be specified in your initial quote and contract, it's got to be in writing because you'll need to refer back to it repeatedly. If the client has to pay for the time it takes to accommodate their whims (could you make the color of the buttons a little more chartreuse? (GRRRRRRRR)), those otherwise endless requests become minimized and easy to tolerate since you're getting paid for them. Problem solved. > I was trying to point out to my client was that this particular > site had excellent placement and organization of primary, > secondary, and 3rd-level calls-to-action. All my client would > focus on, however, was how much he didn't like how it looked. That brings back so many (unpleasant) memories. I think you're wasting your time getting technical about strategy when talking to your clients. Unless your clients are internet marketers they probably won't understand the real significance of what you're talking about, they just want a great looking site and hopefully it will generate sales. Use lots of those buzz words when describing how great the site's going to achieve the client's goals but *never* show them anything visual unless it's exactly what you have in mind for the client. You know in your head how the sample you showed the client would be revised but the client will not be able to get into your head to see it too. All they see is exactly what you show them so you really have to be careful with what you show people. I think that you should never show samples that are somewhat similar to, but not exactly, what you're trying to sell and never show unfinished work. M.Whitman -------- next post -------- From: James Miller Subject: Design costs I deal a lot at the low end and tend to emphasise costs from the start. I always say that content is the most important thing in a web site and this is what gets you the search engine position, so you must start with content. I then say that we need a temporary navigation system, which we'll update and change in a couple of months, when the site is complete. This approach shift actually puts design behind content and often as content determines what pages need to be written, I find it a much better approach. It may be easier for me in that most of the people I deal with are lawyers, journalists and writers, who are generally good at content. James Miller Daisy Analysis www.daisy.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains The Archives: http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/126/120/ Subscribe: http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/52/77/ Unsubscribe, Change Email, or Hold / Resume Delivery: http://www.led-digest.com/content/category/4/17/86/ (c) Copyright 1995-2007 Orange Wheel, LLC. 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