| LED Digest 2517: Google Analytics & Competitive Data |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom www.GetWebContent.com/LED : the LED's Key Sponsor The Web's Most Experienced SEO Content Providers. www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. October 19, 2007 Issue no. 2517 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ===================== --== ProfitChoice Directory Submit Service ==-- ~ Tom Anson "...I was wondering if anyone has some thoughts about a service like this..." ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Stay Away from Google Analytics? ==-- ~ Chris Allen "As a long-time Adwords advertiser, I have a completely different reason...I don't trust Google." <Moderator Comment> ~ Mark Welch "...some of us are concerned about Google hoarding our data." --== Optimizing AdWords by Conversion Rate ==-- ~ Nathan Holley "[Do you manage PPC campaigns] by hand, or use a management tool?" ~ Alex Hughart "When in doubt, look at the big picture." =========== NEW ================================== From: Tom Anson Subject: ProfitChoice Directory Submission Service? Hi everyone, I've been sitting around lately playing with my toes and idly thinking about the need I have to get my websites submitted to some directories. I had taken this far enough to wonder how I was going to find the directories to which my sites should be submitted when I saw an ad in Jill Whalen's High Rankings Advisor. It was for a company called ProfitChoice; the service was a manual web directory submission service. http://www.profitchoice.com/subs Looking over what was on their website, it looks pretty good; but, I was wondering if anyone has some thoughts about a service like this, or has any experience with this service specifically. I know the ad was on High Rankings Advisor, but I don't know if Jill would endorse the service, or if it was simply a paid ad. Thanks for your help. Tom Anson Anson Aromatic Essentials http://www.therapeutic-grade.com ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Chris Allen Subject: Google Analytics In LED 2515, Shelly Cole asks why an SEO expert would steer clear of Google Analytics. Then, Michael Martinez lays out a persuasive case for Google Analytics' shortcomings in LED 2516, saying he doesn't trust Analytics' data quality and results. I had a different reaction to Shelly Cole's question. As a long-time adwords advertiser, I have a completely different reason for being unwilling to use Google Analytics: I don't trust Google. Here's my (black-helicopter-filled conspiracy) theory: If Google owns and sells ad space inventory, and if they know which ad "real estate" is most valuable (profitable) to us, wouldn't they love to figure out a way to increase the cost for those high value ads? There are some of our keywords which are absolute gems. Little or no competition, outsized conversion rates, fabulous ROI, etc. I would be willing to pay significantly more than we currently do to maintain our top 1 or 2 ranking on those keywords. Letting Google in my high ROI keywords feels to me to be the rough equivalent of showing your hole cards in a poker game. I'd really rather not. One might argue that it's a free market, and competition sets the price. Why then does Google interfere with this free market and demand minimum per click charges for high performing keywords with no competition? They clothe this price support in the mantle of "quality scores" designed to improve their users' experience. But then, in the same breath, are willing to waive the sacred quality minimum if I will pay a premium price. If the market clearing price for a keyword is $0.10, shouldn't that be the price? Google knows these clicks are worth something to us, and my observation is that they have slowly been increasing those minimums to test our willingness to pay more. They "disqualify" certain keywords with reasonable traffic, then watch to see if I'll bid higher to keep getting that traffic. In essence, I'm being asked to outbid my own bids of a few months ago. This is good pricing strategy on Google's part, but not something I desire to feed by giving my ROI data to them. This may seem an excessive point, but I find it hard to imagine that some bright young engineer from the analytics department wouldn't bump into a bright young engineer from the adwords department, and trade notes on how to increase adwords revenues by optimizing the adwords pricing algorithm to take advantage of "high ROI" keyword patterns among the analytics data. I'd much rather try to outsmart only my competition and find those neat niche keywords that pay the bills. Tell me I'm paranoid. Probably so. But for now I prefer to keep hold our ROI data close to the vest. Cheers, Chris Allen www.gentlemansemporium.com www.westernemporium.com <Moderator Comment> Thanks for bringing this up, Chris. Aaron Wall has mentioned in the past that it's likely Google utilizes keyword performance data to optimize competitor accounts (they offer free optimization, sometimes quite extensive depending on spend level, for any account). Even if that's not the case, think about the bigger picture here. Google can amass a pretty huge data set of keyword competition by industry, and then use this in multiple ways. Increasingly I'm hearing from people that are going to third-party vendors for analytics if they're doing Adwords spending. BTW Aaron has a good alternative for web stats (Mint) with a few reasons to switch right here: http://www.seobook.com/archives/002434.shtml Mint looks like a nice stats package, but I don't believe it uses javascript tagging (looks like a web log parser). Also, it doesn't look like it's set up to handle very sophisticated campaign tracking, and I don't know if it can do any PPC segmentation at all. -adam -------- new post - same topic --------- From: Mark J. Welch Subject: Google analytics Yesterday, Shelly Cole asked why an SEO consultant would advise against using Google Analytics. There are two reasons I can think of. First, Google Analytics is more complex, with a steeper learning curve, than traditional log-analysis solutions. Many clients just can't handle the complexity. Second, some of us are concerned about Google hoarding our data. I'm already worried that Google can "tap into" a vast collection of data, which it might use to improve its own financial interests. I know that some "second-tier" PPC search companies run their own affiliate marketing operations, using data from merchants and other affiliates to identify the optimal keywords and bid rates without needing to spend money on "trial and error," and one of my clients once claimed that his data was similarly used by a Google staffer to "poach" his campaigns (I'm not confident this was true, but it's certainly possible). Mark Welch, Internet Marketing Consultant http://www.MarkWelch.com/ ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= 2007 Is Aging Fast, So Is Your Content! Remember when search bots visited every four or five months? Now their noses are in your tent constantly. Weekly. Maybe even daily. What's a webmaster to do? Give 'em what they want! Fresh copy. Great copy. Relevant copy. http://www.GetWebContent.com/LED copy. ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - new topic --------- From: Nathan Holley Subject: Conversion Rate > Our goal is always to generate sales that produce more > than $1 in gross profit for every marketing dollar spent. - Mark Welch, LED Digest 2516 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1928/190/ I follow the same general strategy as Mark, thanks for a great run-down by the way. When you mentioned some "4000" ad groups it triggered the idea that we do other things the same too - namely getting super refined and focused for every keyword / ad copy combo. The only way to do that is with hyper-granular ad groups. And that makes me wonder if you do it by hand, or use a management tool? I'm currently on the market, having looked at Omniture (too spendy), Clicktracks (looks good), MakeMeTop (nice UK offering), and Acquisio (new comers, unknown). Anybody have a favorite tool? Nate Holley -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Alex Hughart Subject: Conversion rate > Does anyone else optimize PPC campaigns based solely > on conversion numbers? Are we potentially losing a lot of > sales and great traffic because the analytics aren't accurate? - Nate Holley, LED Digest 2515 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1927/190/ Hi Nate and all, According to Google, the AdWords' tracking cookie stays on visitor's computer for 30 days so, some of the delayed conversions do get tracked eventually. Probably that's the case with other search engines, too. I don't know if any discrepancy in analytics would be big enough to justify a high CPA to a client, especially because an acceptable CPA has more to do with the client's overall business than with specifics of the campaign. If there are no other campaign issues (misleading ads, overbidding, etc.), no usability or merchandising problems (prices, selection, shipping, etc.), you don't have an option but to go with conversion numbers. After all, return on investment is the only number that really matters. The way I see it, determining how much a business is willing to pay to acquire a new customer should be a starting point in building a campaign. There is no one size fits all, every business is different, even businesses belonging to the same relative category. Granted, those with a history will have an easier task of determining customers' worth as they already know their average orders, customer retention ratio, purchasing cycles, etc. For a start-up, it's a guess but, it doesn't have to be a wild guess, either. There are many factors that could be taken into account when looking at a client's business: Do they sell high-priced items or low-priced? What are their profit margins? Is their type of merchandise usually bought impulsively or is it heavily researched before purchasing? How long does it take on average to do such research? How much will repeat customers spend over a certain period of time? How often will they buy? Is the merchandise seasonal? Is it trendy? Is it a necessity or an indulgence...... etc., etc. Then comes the question of how much a business can actually afford to pay for a customer and, especially, how much they can afford NOT to pay for a customer! It's a tough balancing act but, to conclude in a faux-Zen manner: When in doubt, look at the big picture. Alex Hughart http://www.bonsavon.com (c) Copyright 1995-2007 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "The end of birth is death; the end of death Is birth: this is ordained! and mournest thou, Chief of the stalwart arm! for what befalls Which could not otherwise befall?" - Bhagavad Gita |
