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The LED Digest
Moderated Discussion List
"Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997"
Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom
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List Moderator: Published by:
Adam Audette LED Digest
adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com
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November 30, 2007 Issue no. 2545
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.....IN THIS DIGEST.....
====== NEW =====================
<Moderator Comment>
--== Calling Out SEOElite ==--
~ Brett Atkin
"How many of you believe these claims?"
==== CONTINUING =================
--== Internet Fraud & Dishonesty ==--
~ John Cooper
"...there are multiple ways to calculate
shipping."
~ Barb Sybal
"...an additional shipping charge is really
not that uncommon."
~ Richard Stubbings
"...your credit card company is also unreasonable."
~ Nancy Schettler
"International shippers, how have you handled
these issues?"
--== Where's the Info for Non-Marketers? ==--
~ Leon Simmons
"Google displays a PR for public display and a
hidden one for its own purposes."
--== Trouble Downloading PDFs ==--
~ Will Bontrager
~ Tom Aman
========== NEW ===================================
<Moderator Comment>
Thanks for all the feedback about changing the list format to a
post-by-post (with a digest option). Lots of you are in favor of going
to a traditional post-by-post format. But there's a vocal minority
that's in favor of the current digest-only mode. So at this point, I'll
leave it open to more feedback before making a decision.
Thanks again for the input! I want to make sure any changes here will
benefit everyone.
-Adam
---------------
From: Brett Atkin
Subject: SEOElite.com
I've seen this site before and I remember thinking the same thing when
I looked at it today. I really have a tough time believing that Brad
made almost $215,000 in one two week period from Clickbank. He goes
on to state he made over 1 million in 2006 just on the two accounts he
shows and that he as more.
How many of you believe these claims?
Here is something funny...look at the 6th bullet on this page.
http://www.seoelite.com/acceptance-form-b.htm
"Properly optimize my website for MSN, Altavista, Alltheweb, Yahoo,
and the new, confusing Google"
One the previous sales page he shows Clickbank statements with 2007
data but he still considers Google to be "new"?
At the bottom of this page, he states the order page is "Microsoft and
Netscape Secure". Is Firefox not secure?
I've never talked to, met or traded emails with Brad, so I hate to
call him out, but the claims he makes are pretty difficult to believe.
It would be easier to believe if he provided the top 10 sites he runs
that generate this Clickbank revenue as well as provide public access
to his traffic reports.
If I'm out in left field on this, please set me straight so that I
don't feel like wrapping my mouse cord around my neck the next time a
client emails me a link to an offer that makes huge claims and then
asks why I'm not doing that for them..
Thanks
Brett Atkin
http://www.BrettAtkin.com
======== CONTINUING ===============================
From: John Cooper
Subject: Shipping fraud
> I recently purchased 2 flags online... I noticed
> an additional separate charge of $2.20 from the
> very same company. The answer I was told, was extra
> shipping charges... in my mind it's theft as I did
> not authorize the additional charge.
- Robert Joy, LED Digest 2544
- http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1959/190/
Hi Robert,
I'm sorry for the experience you had, but it's not uncommon with
Internet sales. Not knowing the company you bought from or their policy,
I will simply comment from a general perspective.
As owner of an Internet retail business (http://www.realarmorofgod.com),
I can confirm that there are multiple ways to calculate shipping.
DHL/Fed Ex/UPS all have software that integrate with shopping carts to
calculate an 'estimated shipping' cost. It is only an estimate, and is
often lower than the actual fees the shipping company charge the
business. As well, the shipping companies have extra fees for shipping
to residential addresses, adding insurance or a 'signature required'. If
the box is larger than standard dimensions allow an 'over-sized' fee is
added (very high). These are rarely calculated into the estimated
shipping cost because businesses are not using the correct settings in
their software or fail to manipulate the data to compensate for these fees.
I agree that having a post sale additional fee billed is not good
business (and will almost always create a customer satisfaction issue).
When the actual shipping cost is higher than the estimate billed to the
customer, the business must either absorb the loss or bill the
difference to the consumer after the items ship (as in your case).
Because of the limitations of shipping company's software, a common fix
is to manipulate the product weights so the calculated shipping
estimates are closer to actual fees. As well, a flat rate "handling fee"
can often off-set any surprise fees the business may be charged by the
shipper, but simple shopping carts do not have the ability to include
them during the check-out process.
Every feeling you had regarding the additional $2.20 being billed after
the sale is completely justified, and I'm sorry you had that experience.
Regards,
John Cooper
Real Armor Of God.com
http://www.realarmorofgod.com
-------- new post - same topic ---------
From: Barb Sybal
Subject: Shipping fraud
Robert Joy recently commented in LED Digest #2544 that he felt a company
was dishonest about further shipping charges.
As a merchant who has to do this occasionally (perhaps once or twice a
year), an additional shipping charge is really not that uncommon. I at
least try to tell people why, eg: the weight we put on the package was
re-weighed by the courier, the postal/zip code supplied was incorrect,
the customer decided to change addresses en route.
In the 2nd and 3rd examples where the customer supplied an incorrect
address or has changed addresses en route, we get billed by UPS,
and don't get the notification of the additional charge until the next
invoice which could be 10 days later.
It's an unforeseen expense that businesses and customers usually allow
for -- and why Errors & Ommissions Excepted insurance exists (aka E.&O.E).
I wouldn't even call the issue an honest mistake, let alone a dishonest
merchant, and definitely not fraud! For $2.20, we would have eaten the
cost, but perhaps the flag company is new to business or constantly gets
dinged by the courier / shipping companies which adds up considerably
and are no longer tolerant of all the additional charges.
I'd be more irritated with my bank who wants to charge me $30 for a
$2.20 chargeback request -- that's where I think you need to put your
energy; not the additional shipping charge that doesn't seem unreasonable.
Barb Sybal
GFX Printing Services
http://www.gfxinc.com
-------- new post - same topic ---------
From: Richard Stubbings
Subject: Shipping fraud
I would say that not only is this a dishonest trader BUT your credit
card company is also unreasonable. I would change credit card company
immediately to one that lets me do a chargeback without jumping through
hoops. In the past all I have been asked to do is fill in a form and
sign it and send it back. No requirement for it being notarised.
Richard Stubbings
Kulture Shock
http://www.kultureshock.co.uk
-------- new post - same topic ---------
From: Nancy Schettler
Subject: Shipping fraud / shipping charges
Robert,
I hope not to offend you with my post... I'm having questions from "the
other side" of your unexpected shipping charges issue.
With regards to your shipping charge, did you check around on the
website that you made your purchase from, to see if they listed their
shipping rates? Or was it at least mentioned, in the checkout process,
that there would be shipping charges added?
I think that it's not realistic to expect that shipping is free, when
you make a purchase... unless, of course, the website mentions a "Free
Shipping" deal. We all know that it *costs* money to ship merchandise,
and somebody has to pay for that (usually it is the customer).
That said, it still would be very wrong if the website didn't post their
rates someplace where they are easy to find.
Here's my own shipping situation. We sell fabric online, and ship both
domestically (US) and internationally. It's pretty simple to calculate
US shipping rates, but overseas the rates are very complicated
(especially since the USPS new rates went into effect this spring). Our
website has a very basic shopping cart (Mals-e.com) and while it works
well, it can't handle the intricacies of all the shipping calculations.
So... how I chose to handle it was *not* to calculate shipping at all
during the checkout process. Am I trying to hide something? Absolutely
not. I'm trying to make sure that I *never* give any incorrect
information. Instead, I include a link to our shipping rates page, so
that the customer can (and hopefully will) read that, before completing
the checkout process. Yes, the link is shown as part of the checkout
process. Do all the customers read it? No, because occasionally we get a
heated e-mail from an upset customer. I always politely reply, and
include excerpts from the checkout screens so that they can see what
they overlooked (and I include a link to the shipping rates page). I
decided that I would be more comfortable giving *no* shipping
information in the checkout process, rather than sometimes give wrong
information.
I can put all the information out there... and make it as easy to acess,
and as easy to understand as I know how... and even *invite* the
customers to read it ...but I *can't* force my them to do so.
I'm hoping that some readers will have some suggestions, advice, or
other perspectives on this. (Other shopping cart suggestions?)
Maybe other readers will have some input as to how they have handled the
international shipping issue, too.
Here are our own international dilemmas: we can fit 8 yards of regular
fabric into a economical flat-rate envelope. If a customer orders, say
16 yards of fabric, in several short pieces, we can split that up and
send it in two flat-rate envelopes. But if they need it all in one
piece, then we have to send it either in a flat-rate box (which costs
about as much as three flat rate envelopes) or in a tyvek envelope where
the cost depends on the weight & destination. Complication: if they
order flannel, then we can only fit about half as much into the
envelopes/boxes. While we appreciate our customers overseas, we don't
really enjoy processing these orders because it's really a lot more work
than domestic orders. Often we spend a lot of time e-mailing back and
forth to try to make sure that we choose the right option for our
customers' unique needs.
Any ideas? International shippers, how have you handled these issues?
And another question for international shippers (this could start a
whole new topic)... what do YOU do when an international customer asks
you to mark the package as a gift, or declare the value of the contents
as less than what they are? Do you have a set policy, and post it on
your site? Do you make exceptions?
Nancy Schettler
Favorite Fabrics
www.favoritefabrics.com
========= Begin Sponsor Message =========
Sometimes demand totally outstrips supply
www.GetWebContent/LED was developed to provide unique
web content written by full-time professionals.
Since the writers spend a lot of time working with
each client, their workload maxes out fast.
Now they're so maxed we have to stop accepting
new clients for a bit. See you soon.
Thanks to those of you who are now repeat clients!
========== End Sponsor Message ==========
-------- new post - new topic ---------
From: Leon Simmons
Subject: Non-marketers
> Google did just recently blunder in a huge way, however,
> by reducing the Toolbar PR values for many Web sites it
> felt could not be trusted. So people who have been tracking
> Toolbar PR values for their linking sources have an advantage
> over everyone else because they at least can see which
> sites have not been penalized by Google.
- Michael Martinez, LED Digest 2544
You can't rely on Toolbar PR values. A site can be penalized or banned
from Google's index and still show a PR value -- this is a common
occurrence.
Also a PR value can easily be faked and you need to use an appropriate
tool to check on the authenticity of a PR value. A site that can be
useful for checking out a fake PR is
http://www.seologs.com/pr-check/pagerank.html
Beware of some of the other so called 'fake PR rank checkers' because a
number of them are totally unreliable.
It is also important to remember that a fairly new website may often be
very high up in the SERPS for many popular keyphrases but the site may
not yet have acquired a PR that compliments the excellence of its
content. It can take months for Google to eventually display a PR value
that truly indicates the status of a website. Google has the ability to
elevate a website's position in the search results if it considers that
it contributes value to its search results. It is therefore possible
that Google displays a PR for public display and a hidden one for its
own purposes.
Leon Simmons
-------- new post - new topic --------
From: William Bontrager
Subject: PDFs
> I am having a problem with PDF downloads opening
> in the browser window instead of... well, downloading!
- Nancy Cardinali, LED Digest 2543
- http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1958/190/
Nancy, the "secret" is to right-click on the link and use the
resulting menu to save the file.
If you decide to publish download instructions on the web page with
the link, be aware that different browsers have different menu items
on the right click.
This blog post provides copy 'n paste JavaScript to detect four of
the most popular browsers and print the correct menu item to click.
It also has a working example.
http://willmaster.com/blog/javascript/right-click_menu.html
Will Bontrager
http://bontragerCGI.com/
-------- new post - same topic ----------
From: Tom Aman
Subject: PDFs
> On the PC it seems all versions except maybe Firefox, open the PDF in
> the browser. The worst part is I can't figure out how to exit the
> viewing window and download the file! I figure I'm a tad more savvy
> than the average viewer, so how would they know what to do?!
- Nancy Cardinali, LED 2543
My version of Firefox is set to open PDF files in the browser. Whether
or not the file is opened in the browser is determined by browser settings.
In IE 7.0 (possibly earlier versions, too), select the menu item
Tools/Manage Add-ons/Enable or Disable Add-ons. This will open a window
showing all of the current browser add-ons. You can enable or disable
add-ons here, including the Acrobat PDF reader.
In Firefox 2.0.0.x, select the menu item Tools/Options. In the window
that opens select the Content icon, then under File Types, click the
Manage button. This will let you control what should be done with
various file types, including PDF files.
I would assume that any other browsers worth using would include similar
options.
Basically, the thing to remember is that it is usually browser settings
that determine how a particular type of file is to be handled. So
whether or not a PDF downloads will depend on how the surfer's browser
is set to handle that file type.
Tom Aman
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