| LED Digest 2563: The Value of Buying Links |
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The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom www.WillMaster.com/Master : the LED's Key Sponsor Master Series Software - Get Connected with Your WebSite www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. January 4, 2007 Issue no. 2563 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ====================== --== Vacation Autoresponder ==-- ~ AE Johnson ==== CONTINUING ================= --== The Paid Links Scam ==-- ~ Chris Nielsen ~ Al Toman --== Ad Copy with Low CTR ==-- ~ Steven Birk ~ Tom Aman ~ Lorelle Smith ~ Veronica Yuill ========= NEW ===================================== From: AE Johnson Subject: Email Vacation Autoresponder I'm would appreciate it if someone could point me to a vacation autoresponder that would also forward the sender's original email to me. The only autoresponders I can find are for sales, etc, and do not forward the original email. Thanks! AE Johnson ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Chris Nielsen Subject: Paid links > Here's the truth: the paid text link > industry has become nothing but a big > scam... Here's the truth: renting links has > never been a "standard and accepted SEO > practice. - Dan Thies, quoted in LED Digest 2562 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1977/190/ I'm sure those on LED that mostly offer linking are sharpening their knives as I write this, but I thought I should just take a moment to offer my perspective as an Internet consultant that provides SEO and not linking, much as I think Mr. Thies does. I've never been a big fan of paid links, because for several years now I have been predicting that, like other things that people can abuse and manipulate, it will go away. Here we have the rare case of an "optimization" method that is part of what at least one search engine uses, and so they don't seem to be willing or able to remove it from the equation. The puts us in the situation where they say they can use links, but we can't. Oh wait, we CAN use links, but if we receive payment for the links, we must let them know by using a "nofollow" tag on the paid links, which then means the paid link will have little or none of the value that the owner is paying for in the first place. Now, I have a number of sites with paid links and I make a nice side income from this. If links stop being something that can be abuse or manipulated, I will welcome it despite the loss of income. Why? Because I think it will make things more "fair". Not everyone can afford the time and effort needed to put into linking, and it's often no longer a true indication of the value of a site. I have links on all of my sites that point to other of my sites. These links are not "paid", yet it appears that the benefit I used to enjoy has been removed from many of the sites. Perhaps other sites that I have links to only because I like them are also now not getting any benefit from them? I guess that's collateral damage... Here's a truth for you: You cannot always tell the paid or unpaid status of a link by looking at it, it's placement, or the underlying code. Now there are many cases where paid links are easy to spot. But while the links on our sites to our sites would seem to fall into this category, but they are not paid links as I have stated. The only thing this selfish attitude from Google will do is make people be more careful with the way links are deployed, and drive them into site content where they will blend in to become even more impossible to detect as being paid or not. While I have had my doubts and some guilt about the value that those paying for links on my sites are getting, I have happily accepted the monthly fees, since I do not know they are NOT getting value from the links either. I am torn between wanting links to go away as a marketing method, and hoping that it will continue at least until I can retire from this crazy industry. Is the paid link industry become a scam? No. I neither promote nor make any claims about the links I provide. I try only to make sure they are effective as they can be and without the "nofollow" tags or anything that might identify them as being paid for, now that it's a "crime". I hope those that pay for the links get some benefit, because I sure am. Do I pay for links? No, only on very rare times. I get my links from search engines and directories and almost all are free submissions. I own a directory myself and do not take payments for submissions. We feel that the value of a link is equal to the value of a well-written directory submission. It's a fair enough trade and any additional payment is not needed, but our site is advertising-supported so we cover our costs that way. Now, on the second point that renting links not being a "standard and accepted SEO practice.". I would say yes and no. It has never been our practice to buy or rent links for clients, but we sure as heck made getting links for them one of the two pillars of our SEO services, with the first being site optimization. We gain links for clients by submitting their sites to as many places as possible as part of our SEO. Those links were not "rented", but what if they were? There are many directories that charge for submissions, including the Yahoo Directory on a yearly basis. Many SEO companies include a Yahoo directory submission as part of what they offer as a matter of course. I have seen the value of the practice, but we cater to small and medium business and try to offer the best value for the lowest price and so do not include or suggest any paid submissions. I apologize for the long message, but when those in my industry issue forth such blanket statements that are so clearly not true, I feel I must clarify and present other information so that people can have all the information they need to make up their minds on issues such as this. I realize that I have made one blanket statement myself without offering any data to back it up. That's the one about the inability to detect for certain, if all links are paid for or not. I think in this case it will not be challenged and put to the test, but I would welcome any discussion or contest on the matter... Thank you, Chris Nielsen http://www.christiannielsen.net/ ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= **** What a Great Idea! **** It's a "Kick Off the New Year" Software Sale Master Series CGI Software *** and *** Bontrager CGI Software http://flowto.us/NewYearKickoff ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Al Toman Subject: Paid links > If you want links, build something worth > linking to and market the hell out of it. > It's easier, it's cheaper, and it works. - Dan Thies This is perhaps the best SEO lesson I've learned in over 2 years. It's amazing how the tone of SEO has changed since I first started researching it back in 2005, unlike that of the W3C validator. Back then, I thought that there was something powerful to this SEO stuff especially after I applied Brad Callen's step-by-step SEO lessons and witnessed my web site take off from zero to becoming noticed within a few weeks. I fell onto this by accident after hours and hours of spent time, research, reading thousands of words, and decision making. Those who embraced this SEO phenomena always spoke with mystery. The key to unlock the mystery was a check for 2 grand or more. Brad Callen's lessons for ZERO dollars or MYSTERY MEAT for two thousand dollars? For me, it isn't a difficult decision. The results were fantastic. I've previously heard that SEO is aggressive marketing on the creative 8 SEO forums but that single voice was drowned by MYSTERY meat. Back then , I also heard "it's easy" from a most prominent SEO person who occasionally posts on the LED Digest. Yesterday, I read on her forum a question posted by a perplexed web master drowning in "keyword" mystery meat. Her response was that he was working "it" too hard. That is, take "it easy". Today. I've finally learned that "it's easy" or at least the meaning. Yes. Me. SEO dummie. If you are one of us (a SEO dummie) drowning in SEO mystery meat, then repeat this quote to yourself over and over again. Understand what it says. And the mystery disappears. I GUARANTEE that it will save you time, money, energy, frustration, name calling, and hair pulling. "If you want links, build something worth linking to and market the hell out of it. It's easier, it's cheaper, and it works." Now that the mystery is gone, understand that "easy" takes a lot of work. As a learned web designer, web page validation is simple, easy, easy, easy. I read posts by youngsters who believe that they are professional web designers who are frustrated over the fact that their web page designs have 34 errors and 154 warnings. Yeah, I was there once not too long ago. Today, I'm lucky to see no more then 3 minor errors at the most, if that, on the W3C validator. A 30 second fix. Yeah. It's easy but it took a bit of work to get there. Now. It comes to me upon my command. It's that easy. As a web designer, I care more about my client's web sites because their web sites are mirrors reflecting my image. I know that I personally cannot SEO their web sites because I neither own nor operate the search engine. But I do know how to optimize their web pages, to set the stage for THEIR marketing the 'ell out of it. I strongly suggest that the GOOD SEO people get together and collectively create a SEO Guide similar to the W3C standards. It adds credibility to the SEO (if you will) industry and to those who create the guide and saves current or future web masters hours and hours of mystery meat research. I understand the "fear" behind something like this. Overcome it. It's easy. And until then I also know better then to try to do-it-all by myself. There are good people out there who can do the marketing on the Internet for my clients. As a SEO dummie, it is my obligation to find these good people and to espouse them on my web site. Al Toman studio9 web design -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Steve Birk Subject: Ad Click-Through Rate > Take a look at our sponsor's ad copy... > They're getting a very poor click-through > rate, and I'm wondering if the creative is > to blame or if there's something else > contributing here. Your feedback is > appreciated. - Adam Audette, LED Digest 2561 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1976/190/ I have often wondered what the click-through rate of ads are, not only in the LED but in other publications and websites I may visit. The reason mostly is that I almost never click on any ad that I see in a newsletter or on a website. I don't do this for any real reason other than when I am reading a digest like LED or I go to a website, I generally do so to get information I am seeking, not to necessarily click on ads. Off the top of my head, here are a couple possibility's regarding your sponsors poor click through rates: 1- Maybe some people's eyes are just trained to overlook ads in publications. If you hadn't pointed out that the ad in question was right after the first post, I wonder how many people would have just glossed over that going to the next post. Unless, at the exact moment I am looking at an ad that I am thinking I need that exact thing that is in the ad, then maybe I would click on the ad. Other than that, I probably would gloss over and wouldn't click on the ad... 2- Maybe people equate ads with having to spend money, which in these times people seem to be clamping up a bit. The four letter word that starts with F... or otherwise known as "no cost" seems to be what people are after on the internet. They may see an ad and that immediately makes the eyes just glance over it because they may not be looking to spend any money at that time. Case in point is a post in this same LED issue where a poster is asking for a Helpdesk/Trouble Ticket System (one with some nice features) for "no-cost or very low cost"... Something like that could save someone who may have a thriving online business maybe a few hours a day possibly, which could equate to maybe $150-$300 per day depending on an hourly rate, yet they are looking for a no cost solution (not that there is anything wrong with that, just bringing up a point on the possibility's of why people don't click on ads because they may not want to spend money at that time). How many times have you went to a web site, only to be greeted by a screen showing an advertisement that has that little 'skip this ad' link up in the corner? How quick do you click on that 'skip this ad' link to get you to the information you were first seeking. When do you think that these 'skip this ad' links will start to disappear and you will be forced to watch the ad to continue to the information you want to look at? Me myself, I hardly ever click on any ads because mainly, unless I am thinking about needing the exact thing/product that is in the ad at the exact time I am reading the ad, then why click? I also immediately equate clicking on an ad to needing to spend money. Don't get me wrong, I have spent money on various software and items that I use on my web sites, but I have typically found such things while doing searches for things that I need (or reading about various recommendations in LED posts), then going to those sites, reviewing and then purchasing the product. Maybe I have a lot of people just like me visiting my web sites because the click-through rates on Adsense and a few other various 'ads' I may have on my sites are not getting me rich by any means! The above is just my opinion and maybe there is a professional copywriter who can make a tweak in the copy to improve the click-through rate. Not sure that would make a big difference on someone like myself though... Regards, Steven Birk http://MedicalNewsCenter.com Complete, Current and Credible Worldwide Medical News Coverage -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Tom Aman Subject: Ad copy > The "CGI" provides a hint, but it's not enough. - Angela Booth, LED Digest 2562 One thought: How many actually know what "CGI" is intended to mean in this ad context? For those of us who have been associated with the Web for a long time or are / have been involved in creating software (commonly refered to as "CGI scripts" - a bit of a misnomer since it may be a program rather than a script) to be used in conjunction with a Web site automatically assume that "CGI" refers to "Common Gateway Interface", but an alternative meaning is "Computer-generated imagery", first used in movies around 1973 in Westworld and much refined since then. The use of "CGI" to refer to this use is fairly common in some circles. (There are other meanings for "CGI", but I expect that these two are the most commonly known). So this makes me wonder how many Web site owners assume the alternative when they see the term "CGI" and are not interested as they have no real desire or need for "Computer-generated imagery" on their site or elsewhere, so never read or check further. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-generated_imagery for more detailed background.) The line in the ad, "The Master Series CGI Software" could just as easily refer to software for image generation as it could to Web software. Which meaning is actually taken could well depend on the background of the reader - I would take it to mean "Common Gateway Interface", as expected, but my son, who works extensively in graphics, assumed it must mean "Computer-generated imagery". Tom Aman Aman Software http://www.cyberspyder.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Lorelle Smith Subject: Ad copy The first few weeks the new sponsor's ads were really vague ("Meet The Bontrager Team... Get to know us and what we offer for your web site") so I didn't click. Also, the "FlowTo" domain name doesn't give much of a clue. It seems like a disguised URL, a la "tinyurl.com," because we've come to associate it with disguised email addresses in the LED. Then both the URL and the ads started to get a little more specific ("The Master Series CGI Software... It's tools. It's automation"). I have been wanting spam-proof forms and other functionality on my websites so I clicked through. Like others before me, once I arrived on the landing page I was confused. I clicked around looking for clues that they would have anything I wanted to buy for my sites. It was all pretty vague. Frankly, I was surprised that anyone would advertise in LED before their site is ready to convert. But they were really smart to ask what's going on, and they seem to be genuinely nice people, so maybe they'll win my business yet! Lorelle Smith, formerly the Keywordsmith, now the Conversionsmith & Pay-per-click Manager http://www.PPCsmith.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Veronica Yuill Subject: Ad copy Wow, some "tough-but-fair" comments on Will's ad and site! I just wanted to pick up on something John said: > CGI is still a powerful language, and has > plenty of merits - but it is very hard > work. Any novice who has installed a cgi > script will have tales of chmod and chown > nightmares, filepath issues and the like... > Educate the shopper 'why use CGI instead of > php/cfm/asp?' My feeling is that for Will's target market, it shouldn't matter whether it's CGI, PHP or CFM. They just want a script that works, and does what they want. Will's excellent support should ensure that any installation problems are quickly solved. And the advantage of Perl/CGI is that it will work on just about any server, so at least they won't have people buying PHP scripts and then finding they don't have PHP installed :-) Out of interest though, Will, do you work purely in Perl/CGI? As John says, it has its uses, but it is looking rather "old hat" now. I shudder when I look back at my days of Perl/CGI coding, and I'm so happy to be using PHP now :-) Regards Veronica Yuill www.larecettedujour.org/ (c) Copyright 1995-2008 Orange Wheel, LLC. 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