| LED Digest 2579: Clients with Crappy Content |
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The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom http://www.WillMaster.com/Master : the LED's Key Sponsor Master Series Software - Get Connected with Your WebSite http://www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. January 30, 2008 Issue no. 2579 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ====================== --== Clients Providing Crap Content ==-- ~ Brett Atkin "Sometimes I find myself thinking, 'Are you serious?'." --== HTML Validation - Who Cares? ==-- ~ Jon Diamond "As a professional you should consider the investment that is being put into your efforts." ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Are Content Management Systems Worth It? ==-- ~ Jeremy Weiss "I've been using Drupal on some projects since around early '04." ~ Howard John Brereton "...we found the use of Article Manager one of the best investments we have ever made." <Moderator Comment> --== Flexible & Affordable Shopping Carts ==-- ~ Lorelle Smith "I suspect you might really like Americart." --== 2008 Marketing Predictions ==-- ~ Michael Martinez "This is not rocket science but neither is it something that the average business operator has time to do..." <Moderator Comment> ========= NEW ===================================== From: Brett Atkin Subject: What do you do when... A client is going to send something out (email) or put something on their site (graphic, copy, 3rd party promotion) that just looks unprofessional? I can't necessarily create professional media, but I think I have a good eye for what is and is not great design, copy, graphics, Flash, MP3, etc. When I client gives me something (for an email or to post on their site) that looks horrible, isn't consistent with their current branding, reads like a 5th grader, etc., what should I do? Sometimes I find myself thinking, "Are you serious?". Most of the time I speak up (successfully and unsuccessfully), but sometimes it just isn't worth the effort. I hate to say that, but it is true. What do you do in situations like this? Related to this, you create a great site or beautiful HTML email template and then the client wants you to add something that "compromises" the design and thus a "portfolio" piece for your potential clients to review. Any thoughts on what to do here? Thanks Brett Atkin http://www.BrettAtkin.com ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= WebSite's Secret Members Area You pay one fee and have unlimited access for 6 months to a collection of Will Bontrager's handy web tools. (Since this is a new service, the fee is still low.) The latest addition - Spam Resistant PHP Form: The form, the form handling script, and instructions are included in the download file. http://www.willmaster.com/SecretArea ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - new topic -------- [Note: this was posted on the site today, responding to this thread on HTML validation: http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/31/191/ -adam] From: Jon Diamond Subject: HTML Structure Validation - Who Cares? > Can anyone share a *good* reason why I > should care whether an HTML validator likes > my use of quotes around multi-word > attributes only? - Mark Whitman, LED 2130 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/29/190/ To a certain extent I agree with you... If you have to crank out a bunch of garbage all the time then yes it is a waste of time; and by garbage I mean disposable content. If I was designing a viral campaign or a grassroots campaign for a time sensitive issue then by all means good enough usually takes a little more time then I should spend. If however you are generating html that will be archived in any type of knowledge store, creating a brand identity or creating a growing or established corporations identity then strict adherence to standards is a professional obligation / responsibility. There is never time to re-factor code be it Java, HTML or Operating Systems... So we upgrade instead? Saying valid html is a best practice and shrugging it off because it doesn't seem relevant in your situation is like a dentist opting out of wearing rubber gloves because your under and the latex irritates his skin; If most people woke up they would probably say something. It's true your client will probably never send you a fruit basket because they recently re-branded and accidentally converted all the old site content when they uploaded main.css; As a professional you should consider the investment that is being put into your efforts. (Kinda like using short concise statements) Value can only realized if it's present. If you build HTML correctly it's contents should be useful in ways you can't imagine. So don't think that because you don't see a need that it is not there. If you have been schlepping out invalid HTML with no regard for DOC type or understanding of what it is... Billing your sites as professional web development... You are again guilty of misrepresenting the capability of your work. If the green light is ever out on a site I developed I can tell you why and the line number and I just now decided to include a section of comments at the top of the page with justifications for any invalid html. It's always easy to justify not being responsible just like it is always difficult to be responsible I guess the mark of a true professional in this day and age is having a good marketing department. Jon Diamond ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Jeremy Weiss Subject: CMS > So, what experience do any of you have > implementing and using a CMS system > (Joomla, EE, DotNetNuke, Drupal, etc...)? > Have you found it to be huge savings in > up-front development? From the SEO side of > things, have you found the system's you've > used to be SEO friendly? - Brett Atkin, LED 2578 Hey Brett, I've been using Drupal on some projects since around early '04. I initially used it on a site of my own and after learning how easy it was to install and configure I started offering it to clients. Depending on what the client is wanting, I can roll out a fully configured Drupal install in a few hours; which can be a very large savings compared to having to roll my own system. Training the client's on it can be... interesting. But I do have one client who was a total neophyte to the Internet in general when we started and she now maintains her site. It simply took me typing up step-by-step instructions for a couple of the more common actions. Straight out of the box, Drupal isn't the most SEO friendly, especially if you worry about duplicate content. But with some planning up front and the use of the right modules, there's no reason why a Drupal based site can't be just as optimized as a static html page. In the end there are pros and cons to everything, including Drupal. Sincerely, Jeremy Weiss Consulting and Internet Services http://www.BluePhoenixConsulting.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Howard Brereton Subject: CMS Regarding your question Brett about CMS we found the use of Article Manager at www.interactivetools.com one of the best investments we have ever made. Paying for the software means that you can get support when you want to do your own design and adapting, and it also means that the end product does not look like the thousands of other templated sites. Our contributors can now add their news stories and load photos at ease. I have found though that the time you save using a CMS you spend making improvements - for example we have opened a pda friendly version of the site, simply because the CMS, with a few hours work, gave us the possibility of doing so. We will be ready for the mobile rush - should it come. I hasten to add I have no links to the company mentioned, except to say that I am a happy client. Good luck Howard John Brereton Director - www.typicallyspanish.com <Moderator Comment> A good thread on SEM 2.0 about this as well identified a new one I hadn't heard of called Expression Engine (turns out it's extremely popular - I'm just out of it I guess): http://groups.google.com/group/SEM2... Here's a link to Expression: http://expressionengine.com And here's an informative post about choosing a CMS: http://www.seomoz.org/blog/choosing-the-right-cms-platform... Content management systems are all the buzz lately, it's odd. -Adam ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= One Way Links to your Site, by the Hundreds? Yes! Get Traffic and Link Popularity to Your Site from Legitimate, General Interest Web Directories. DomainDrivers Makes It Hassle-Free. Details Here: http://www.domaindrivers.com/directory-submissions.html ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Lorelle Smith Subject: Shopping carts > The problem I am having is finding a > shopping cart that not only can I easily > operate on the front end but also is able > to handle the number of parts that I plan > on carrying... - Ron Carmickle, LED 2578 Ron, I suspect you might really like Americart. It's very powerful but extremely easy for a novice. Plus you can feed it your spreadsheet of car parts and it will create the pages for you using your custom template. No need for you to worry about SSL; all transactions take place on their secure server. It can interface with a gateway (i.e. Authorize.net) to verify credit cards before transactions and automate the entire process, or you can have it email each order for processing manually. I don't know whether it could handle your pricing challenge, however. You might find it tedious to re-generate all the pages on a regular basis. But if you just need to change prices on a few items daily, it's easily done manually by editing the html code behind the product's "add to cart" button. Good luck with your online store, and thanks for coming out of lurk mode! Lorelle Smith Pay-per-click (PPC) Ad Campaign Management http://www.PPCsmith.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Michael Martinez Subject: Predictions > Again, 99% of this is not rocket science, > by any means. I can explain basic SEO > concepts, while showing actual examples of > sites that follow them successfully to a > real estate agent during a 30 minute phone > call. In fact, I have been doing exactly > that for the last few weeks, to a lot of > people. At the end of the conversation, > they are not only grateful, but stunned > that it is all so straightforward. Many are > also quite upset that they'd previously > spent thousands of dollars for "SEO > services" and got very little tangible to > show for it. - Dirk Johnson, LED 2578 I agree with some of your concerns about lack of standards, etc. However, I seriously doubt the analyses you've provided in the past few weeks have been adequate. It's one thing to organize a Web site's content and structure to be optimal (something most SEO technicians rarely do any more). It's quite another to monitor the search results and make adjustments for changes in query trends and searcher preferences, much less to figure out why a competitor's site rises up suddenly. This is not rocket science but neither is it something that the average business operator has time to do over the long haul IF they are in a competitive vertical. To simply dismiss everything that the semi-professional SEO does with a wave of your hand is just another form of marketing hype. "You don't need their services, but mine have been doing great for years." Dirk, your messages seem less promotional lately but I, at least, remember your long history of self-promotion at the expense of evil SEOs. Being an SEO industry insider who has long criticized my peers for their lack of standards and critical perspectives, I nonetheless see the continuing value and need for these kinds of services. The industry will improve as the calls for standards increase (and in my opinion they ARE increasing). The need for search optimization will continue to thrive as more and more companies look to search to drive sales. The average site operator can do just fine applying the basic principles of optimal page design -- until they run into competition. That's where an SEO who does the research and watches the results makes a difference. People who don't understand what they are paying for should be asking their providers to explain the service again. If they are not satisfied, then that's time to make a change. It's not time to make a change just because someone with a rival business model suggests you're being ripped off. Michael Martinez http://www.michael-martinez.com/ <Moderator Comment> Since Michael is far too humble to publish this himself, allow me to direct LEDers to this post he wrote yesterday: http://seo-theory.com/wordpress/2008/01/29/we-have-a-critical... It expands on this issue quite a bit. -Adam (c) Copyright 1995-2008 Orange Wheel, LLC. 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