| LED Digest 2585: Networking vs Marketing |
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| Written by Administrator | |
| Thursday, 07 February 2008 | |
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The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom http://www.WillMaster.com/LED : the LED's Key Sponsor Will Bontrager Builds Powerful Software for your Website http://www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== Guest Moderator: Published by: Nathan Holley LED Digest nate, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. February 7, 2008 Issue no. 2585 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= <Guest Moderator> --== Social Media is Dull ==-- ~ Shel Horowitz "...I've set wheels in motion that are building powerful and real relationships..." ~ Steve Pronger "...surely your profile page is where you should be linking to your sites." <Guest Moderator> "...leave the profile pages for the 101 link builders." --== Clients & Professionalism ==-- ~ John Smart "...I am a small business that cannot afford to turn trade away." ~ Jim Gatton "Sometimes the designer is just plain wrong." ~ Beth Ann Earle "...we've started using a set of written questions..." ~ Peter D'Aprix "So how did I deal with the client who came to me as Mr. Gatton...?" ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Shel Horowitz Subject: Social media > Will social media sort of die out, at least > a bit, after the hype wears off? How useful > is it really to vote for a story? So what, > you gave it a vote - whoopee-freakin'-doo. > It means nothing. Feel free to disagree. - Nathan Holley Taking you up on the offer, Nathan ;-) Remember how crappy and boring most blogs were in the old days? Or, for that matter, web pages -- in the days when people found pages on Excite or Hotbot or if they were really cool, Alata Vista. but the technology allowed those media to rise quickly into something very useful. For blogs, the ability to load text, pix, audio, and video without involving a webmaster is a phenomenal shift. And the ability of citizen jouralists to right the wrongs of mainstream media is a whole lot easier than it was when we used mimeo machines and local distribution. For the web, e-commerce, forms, auto-updated content streams, etc. created an experience that few would have predicted in 1994. What's important about Facebook et al is not the inane content that currently dominates my kids' experience of it -- it's the technology that provides great tools for us marketing folks not only to network meaningful (I've made some very powerful connections, especially on Plaxo), but also to get some 15 minutes of fame for our own stuff. I don't go to social media sites to write gibberish on people's walls, but to participate in dialogues that both stretch my thinking and let people know how I can solve their problems (just as I've done for years on this and other e-mail based discussion groups). By joining groups, by responding to threads, and by contacting people one on one, I've set wheels in motion that are building powerful and real relationships, and have a strong probability of leading to speaking gigs, paid client assignments -- and have already led to some useful media exposure such as radio interviews. What advantages over e-mail discussion lists? * Automatic threading * Three chances to get the message: in the e-mail notification, sitting and waiting on your page when you log in, and in the weekly activity summaries * On Plaxo and CollectiveX in particular, sweeping geographic reach -- all of a sudden I have lots of contacts in the Arab world and in Asia I've been participating actively on Facebook since October, and have spread to Plaxo and CollectiveX. I have a profile but no real presence on several others. The hour or so a day I spend on it comes out of the time I used to spend on e-mail. Shel Horowitz Marketing Strategic Planning, Consulting, and Copywriting http://www.frugalmarketing.com Sign the Ethics Pledge: http://www.business-ethics-pledge.org -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Steve Pronger Subject: Social media Nathan, I've been using bookmarking as a pure link building exercise for some time, but true, I've only been exploring the "social" aspect in recent months. But I'm a fast learner, and I've learned a lot from people like Jack Humphrey. It's great to see some in-depth discussion on social marketing on LED, with some actual strategies and techniques. If, as you say, you use social media sites for marketing every day, and get stories on the front page of Digg, I wonder why we haven't heard from you on this topic before in such detail, other than to say social media is dull. I presume it's been successful for you or you wouldn't continue to use it every day. The 7 points you raised are all good advice and I largely agree. But there seem to be a few contradictions. You say: > You can bet I don't advertise my site's on > my profile pages - instead I advertise my > other profiles. That's key. And... > Keep it non-commercial. The content you > promote needs to be valuable and unique, > and non-commercial. But... > I play the game according to the rules and > I benefit from the traffic and backlinks Backlinks to where? Other social media sites? Yes, you need to write non-commercial content for your posts to be accepted into many social media sites (not all) but surely your profile page is where you should be linking to your sites. You do need to make your profile pages not look spammy. That's why you have to take the time to add all the "social" stuff and you certainly don't want to be linking out to made-for-adsense type sites. But I'm seeing direct traffic and good quality links from those profile pages. Take my Mashable profile: http://my.mashable.com/motherduck Anchor controlled, one way, in-context, nofollow-free links. Seems crazy to me to not utilise that. True, not every profile page is going to give you a nofollow-free link, but if you're posting good quality stuff, playing by the rules and being accepted into that community, then you will get real people following those links. I would much rather have that sort of traffic than thousands of spotty-faced tech-heads coming from Digg, who stay for 3 seconds and leave. You tell me, is your Digg traffic buying your affiliate products? Although I do realise there are flow-on effects such as influential bloggers linking to you and trackbacking you, yes? > There, I don't use social sites for fun, > because they're all a giant waste of time > (except Delicious). Again, I'm confused as to why you use social media sites every day if it's a giant waste of time. Or do you only use Del.iciou.us? I don't do it for fun either. This is business. But you do have to make friends and be "sociable". That's the whole point of these sites. That's part of playing by the rules and not being seen as a spammer. Still, no reason you can't enjoy yourself while you're at it! Steve Pronger http://www.stevepronger.com <Guest Moderator> Thanks for the continued discussion, this is great! You may be trying to pin me down a bit - and that's fine I'd do the same thing - or maybe over-analyzing this. You're approaching this whole thing as networking and building a reputation. Great! Go for it, but let's be sure we're actually talking about the same thing here (we're not). You asked why I haven't posted about social media before on the list. Why would I? I don't really post here to build up followers or traffic. It makes no sense for me to divulge my practices - it's just what I do for a living and affiliate marketing is competitive and better kept confidential. Secondly, as you well know social media is a marketing mechanism online. If you're approaching this as a link building technique from profile pages... well I'm sorry but that's really naive. Building links comes from having content on the front page of Digg or the Delicious popular list, not from having 10 profiles with a link. Guess how many backlinks you can build up with a story getting popular? 150-200 easily, and I've had as many as 1500 backlinks from a successful linkbait. THAT'S how you use social media for linking, leave the profile pages for the 101 link builders. I link between other profile sites, because my image is not important and I don't have a site or firm or company or anything to link to anyway. I think I mentioned that - this is a grassroots thing and linking on a profile between Digg, Delicious, Stumble, et all is really a smart idea, but linking to my own site a really dumb idea (because I'm an affiliate marketer - maybe would work for a student blog). You link between profiles because building up friends is essential, and this allows you to spread success to other networks. You really can't monetize Digg traffic, or pretty much any of the others to be honest. Social media hits and runs. Best technique is to launch w/out ads, then monetize later after the spike has tapered. Finally, I stand by my statement: social media is dull. I don't use this stuff for fun people, I use it for links and traffic. Alright, back to work - hope this makes sense. Feel free to email me off-list to discuss further. -Nathan ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= Latest addition => Spam Resistant PHP Form WebSite's Secret Members area access to a collection of Will Bontrager's handy web tools. http://www.willmaster.com/AreaSecret ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - new topic -------- From: John Smart Subject: Professionalism > Personally, I won't take money from > someone, if I think that what they want > will not serve them. And if I don't think > they are right, I will tell them so. - Michael Linehan, LED 2582 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1997/190/ Been there, tried that. I do try to direct the customer, but I am a small business that cannot afford to turn trade away. When I have (politely, and carefully) advised a client that what they are doing is not going to work, that they should seek help on the content, etc - they say 'thank you' and take the work to one of our competitors! So now, I do what they ask, and accept their money. I try to point out any issues - some are receptive, others are not. I do not like to think of myself as a vampire, sucking every drop of money out of every potential client - I educate as best I can, but at the end of the day, if Mr. X wants site Y built, if he pays me to build it, I will build it. If he demands it looks like this, and acts like that, I will advise if I feel it should look or act differently, but ultimately, I will do what the client asks for - rather than lose the client. If only the world would accept that I know best - if everyone did as I said, things would be so much better and easier :) John Smart InternetDesign.com A Human Touch in a Digital world. -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Jim Gatton Subject: Professionalism > We are hired to do a job and it is > frustrating when we aren't allowed to do > it. Professionalism goes both ways. When it > does, great things can happen. When it > doesn't, well, you know what happens... - Brett Atkin, LED 2583 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1998/190/ Hi, Brett. Thanks for your feedback in issue number 2583. Just a brief note here to expand on a couple of points that you raised in your response. Part of the problem was, as you guessed, that with my budget I had to go offshore and that certainly created some problems. However, I knew that going in and really believe I gave the designer sufficient detail so that he knew upfront what I was looking for. For the price I paid I did not expect a marketing guy; just a designer. And, yes, there was much discussion between us as the project went forward. He never once even hinted at the possibility that the design I wanted would be incompatible with my objectives. Had he done so and explained to me even briefly why he was qualified to disagree with my decisions from the standpoint of marketing I would have listened very closely and made even significant changes as we went along. In the beginning I was given the impression that there was nothing wrong with the design of the four sites that I gave to him as examples. Once we were halfway into the project and I'm seeing a design that does not reflect the marketing expertise evident in the designs of the four example sites it was very difficult to just say nevermind and then back out of the contract. While I am not very good at web marketing yet, I know the four example sites are very successful and all peddling the same product line. Made sense to me to follow their examples (marketing design) and pick up the little bits that they leave behind. Rather than go on and on it is probably best to simply reiterate my initial concern. Yes, a designer certainly may know more than I do about what I need. If I am ever in that situation where the individual I contract with not only knows design but also knows more about marketing than I do (that part's not too difficult) I hope that I am smart enough to benefit from the designer's expertise. Anyway, what we on LED should not do is encourage the idea that the designer always, without exception, knows best and the tone of some of the earlier posts on this subject seemed to be, although innocently, encouraging this fallacy. Sometimes the designer is just plain wrong. That's not horrible and it's not an insult! It's just life. The client is sometimes wrong. The designer is sometimes wrong. Let's all make allowance for both possibilities. Jim Gatton http://www.dentalinsurancefor.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Beth Ann Earle Subject: Professionalism > I really enjoy clients that give us a free > reign, but at the same time give us some > direction and general concept. - Robert Joy, LED Digest 2584 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1999/190/ To help gain "some direction and general concept" from our clients, we've started using a set of written questions (about two dozen, in all) that act like a sort of optometrist's eye test ("Does it look better like this? Or like this?"), but with live examples for the client to review, for instance: Concerning the colors for your website design, do you prefer sites with a wide variety of colors (see website example A) or with a more monochromatic palette (see website example B)? The questions cover everything from vertical or horizontal orientation to font types and colors, the use of images (both from the client and from stock photography) and the treatment of those images to the location of the main nav buttons. We also ask about their target markets and target audience. We send the client the list of questions ahead of time and then set up a phone interview (or a face-to-face, but most of our clients aren't local) to go over the client's response to each situation. This process hasn't completely eradicated surprises, but it has helped us more clearly identify a client's preferences, especially for those clients who otherwise just say, "You're the professional. Just do what you think is best." Invariably in those cases, what we think is best doesn't match at all with what the client thinks is best. The list really helps avoid that. Regards, Beth Ann Earle www.pilotfishseo.com ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= One Way Links to your Site, by the Hundreds? Yes! Get Traffic and Link Popularity to Your Site from Legitimate, General Interest Web Directories. DomainDrivers Makes It Hassle-Free. Details Here: http://www.domaindrivers.com/directory-submissions.html ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Peter D'Aprix Subject: Professionalism Professionalism - Part 2 of 3 [part 1: http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1999/190/] I had a client who approached me just like Mr. Gatton did with his web designer. Without meaning any disrespect, Mr. Gatton, good graphic design is not a question of "a piece of art" and certainly not an "emulation" of other successful sites that probably are successful because they are the result of a systematic web marketing strategy; it is a visual set of culturally recognized symbols that make a communication tool, not a template, copy or bit of fine art. A good graphic designer will first ask you precisely what you want to achieve with your site (or any other advertising material), not how it should look. That is putting the proverbial cart before the horse. If you can identify and prioritize what you want to communicate (your marketing and business strategy) and have your site achieve from positioning you vis a vis your competition to differentiating you from your competition (who needs to look like a shallow imitation of your competition?), then a good graphic designer will present you with several visual approaches to contribute to your "financial success" or at least stand the best chance since there are many other factors involved in "financial success" than a web site. The designer will go over them with you explaining how and why each one was designed and what they were designed to do. The designer, who should have (or a partner or two with them) some experience with branding, marketing, advertising, visual communication etc., should listen to your comments, discuss with you where you may be misunderstanding how this all works vis a vis the web world, or figure out where your mutual communication missed something, and then make suggestions on how to align the requirements of the web site with your own marketing strategy to get you what you want and provide you what will work best. There is more to the potential of a web site than just a hard sell. A good web designer backed up with a good web marketing team, could very well leap frog you past your competition rather than just emulating them. But it takes some back and forth to bring your business skills in synch with the skills of those expert in making a web site provide a good ROI for a company; or vice versa. So where, as a client, does this leave Mr. Gatton who is clearly not receiving what he wants? I would suggest that in picking a web designer, he find either a person who clearly gets what he is trying to achieve and will fully discuss with him he needs, not just what he wants a site to look like, or find a team who has the full skill set to maximize his "financial success" potential. From the designer's point of view, if Mr. Gatton came to me as my afore mentioned client did, saying he wants his site to look like a marginally different version of his competition, I would politely suggest he find someone else to make his site since he clearly sounds like a successful businessman but one who appears to think the internet plays by the same rules. And not because he lacks any taste, but does not seem to display an understanding that the taste developed for a site follows way behind the internet marketing strategy in development sequence. After all, if you make a high end product you want a sophisticated visual taste for your site and advertising that reflects the quality of your product. If you make cheap knock offs, customers are buying on price, you want a basic site with a look and feel that does not suggest you waste any of their money on frills. So how did I deal with the client who came to me as Mr. Gatton approached his designer? Following an initial set of variations, it is was obvious that the client could not tell me what his goals and/or marketing strategy was other than to look like his competition and it was clear we were not communicating and I was not providing what he liked, although he could not really tell me what he did not like about them. So I refunded him the balance of his down payment and suggested he find a designer with whom he could work. His site ended up looking like a web site would have looked had it been made for Victorian industrial age in the Midlands rather than the high tech company he really was. But he liked it and whether or not it brought him in clients, it was more important that he liked it. Did it fulfill any of the few criteria he gave me to meet? No. Not a one. But it was his money and if he liked it, that is what ends up being the most important criteria for him. A situation that turned out quite differently was one where the communication was quite different between my client and myself, despite the fact that my client had a fixed idea of what the site should look like that was very much at odds with what I knew he wanted the site to achieve. He needed to appeal to both corporate retail establishments for the long term but consumer clients for the short term to create a market segment for his new product that was not being met by his competition. I supplied a basic visual framework for the site, then presented various embellishments for it. The basic format was corporate while the embellishments were to appeal to the consumer. Since the consumer market would eventually fall away rather like a booster for a space craft, we could just peal way the things that would attract the consumer and still have a fully functional corporate site without a complete site rebuild. But since it would take some time to develop the corporate/retail interest, and in fact, he would have to create a market share with consumers before the retail industry would be interested, in my considered opinion, we needed the consumer geegaws to make sales from the site. He did not agree. But I soon realized that he had never marketed to the consumer. So he was thinking purely in corporate B2B terms that the price and specifications of the product would sell it to both the business world and to the consumer. So with what I believe was diplomatic, not confrontational, discussions to explore and extract his core reactions, it turned out that this product, an action sports product, would stand the best chance of selling to the general public not by its specifications but by the appeal to the excitement and fun of the product for the whole family. Once he explored that idea and slept on it a bit, he realized that his corporate requirements were being met, but that also the site was supporting a consumer market as well, and into the bargain, we were introducing some "link bait" to join the other web promotion and marketing tools we are applying. So it took a little time with learning and listening on both our parts, both trying to understand the other's point of view and objectives with some changes for both of us to adjust to and incorporate. (Sorry, the site is still undergoing development and the first container of product still on the high seas so no site launch until the bell sounds). Peter D'Aprix - Visual Communications http://peterdaprix.com (c) Copyright 1995-2008 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
