| LED Digest 2586: Microsoft Offering SEO? |
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The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom http://www.WillMaster.com/LED : the LED's Key Sponsor Will Bontrager Builds Powerful Software for your Website http://www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== Guest Moderator: Published by: Nathan Holley LED Digest nate, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. February 8, 2008 Issue no. 2586 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ====================== <Guest Moderator> ~ Microsoft Offering SEO --== Deposit or Retainer? ==-- ~ Robert Joy "...money upfront or no money upfront?" --== Planning First ==-- ~ Michael Linehan "I thought I'd send in this post about the order of work done in developing a website." ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Social Media is Dull ==-- ~ Adam Audette "This really hits on a key issue at work here..." --== Clients & Professionalism ==-- ~ Tom Anson "True professionalism can never be immoral or illegal." ~ Shel Horowitz "[Saying no to sales] boils down to honesty, integrity, and quality." ~ Peter D'Aprix "...so often problems are the result of miss-communications." ========= NEW ===================================== <Guest Moderator> LEDers, How do we feel about Microsoft offering SEO services? And how do we feel about SEOmoz partnering with Microsoft to offer membership discounts to premium sponsorships on SEOmoz.org? This feels really creepy and it's also just weird. Why would Microsoft decide something like this, when their PPC network almost totally sucks, and their old bCentral arm that targeted a similar market failed and was closed down? Why should we buy SEO services from Microsoft? Are they going to give us "special tricks" to get into Live.com beyond just inserting keywords all over a page (live.com also sucks)? Should we trust that Microsoft isn't going to abuse their position as a search engine when offering SEO? WTF Microsoft - this is bazaar to me. Or bazar, I can never figure that spelling out. Bizaar? - never mind. Here's the reading for ya: Microsoft partner page: https://partner.microsoft.com/40046001 Lisa B comments: http://www.bruceclay.com/blog/archives/2008/02/charity_contest.html Sphinn comments: http://sphinn.com/story/27199 -Nathan Holley ----------------- From: Robert Joy Subject: Deposit or Retainer before website design?? What is the general consensus of opinion amongst others about asking for a deposit before commencing website design? Generally we stay within the small to medium business market sector, but recently have been asked to do a website involving, music, video and multiple flash design. The design and size is significant and the client was refered to ourselves by another satisfied client. Many of our clients we have never met although talked to on the phone and endless amounts of emails, so we do have there trust when it comes to payment in advance. Our policy has always been 50% upfront and the balance upon satisfactory completion by the client. This latest website and from a client who does not know who we are except from another client is quibbling about paying 50% upfront to someone he does not know. We'd like to do the website as it will be a large project and a fun one as well. What do other's do before they commence website design, money upfront or no money upfront? Robert Joy -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Michael Linehan Subject: Planning and content first Because of recent experiences, I thought I'd send in this post about the order of work done in developing a website. On two occasions, I have been brought in on projects where design factors took precedence over the marketing content and optimization, and inhibited the effectiveness of both. Optimization for the best ranking is crucial to just about any business's maximum success. And when people do arrive, you want absolutely the best selling effect possible. Having design factors automatically inhibiting or even lessening the power of the optimization and sales effectiveness is a ‘bad thing’. You need to get your optimization and marketing/sales requirements in place before the design gets built, and have the design built around those. Having design and building come first is like a graphic designer laying out a brochure and saying to a company, "Here's your design. You have room for 700 words." Then the company says, "Well, for where we intend to display the brochure, we need the heading three times as big. And we need 1,500 words to even just give the basics of our products." The designer says, "Sorry. That's the design. You have to work within that." Imagine! Completely silly and obviously unacceptable. And yet, this is how, in essence, many websites are built. When we consider a brochure, we immediately see it would be foolish to implement design first. Shoehorning the content into an already existing brochure design is just not the best way to go. The company should have gotten to declare their marketing requirements first — before the design was implemented. The design needs to fit the requirements of the marketing — not come before and then put constraints on the marketing. For a website, you need to think about factors such as the number of words, how to lay them for best effect (i.e. spacing out and having headings), overall arrangement of content within the site, and optimization. The designer then needs to build the site around your critical marketing and optimization factors. Plan strategically. Develop content. Then design and build. And, finally, optimize, link and promote. Michael Linehan, Marketing Alchemy www.marketing-alchemy.com ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Adam Audette Subject: Social media Nathan prodded us with comments such as... > Will social media sort of die out, at least > a bit, after the hype wears off? How useful > is it really to vote for a story? So what, > you gave it a vote - whoopee-freakin'-doo. > It means nothing. Feel free to disagree. - Nathan Holley, LED 2583 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1998/190/ I'm going to assume you're being the conversation-starter here, and knowing you I'd be right. Let's see... you spend a lot of time on Digg, etc, and yet they're complete wastes of time. I can see your point, that as a marketing exercise they are a work thing and not a fun thing. But this all sounds too much like jaded comments from a burnt-out idealist to me. You see LEDers, Digg for one has changed pretty drastically over the last 6 months or so, and especially the last few days. There's a new algorithm that makes it much harder to promote a story to the front page for older profiles (ostensibly) and easier for "fresh" accounts to get promoted. Bottom line: it's stung a lot of the Digg old-schoolers that think it's unfair. There's also a crucial distinction Nathan pointed out (more like glossed over!) between *networking* and *marketing* using social media. Steve Pronger has fabulous points and is approaching these sites correctly - as a user of them. He's joining the conversations. Nathan is approaching them as a "how can I game this" kind of thing and not interested in making friends (except from a need to build profile strength) but making traffic and backlinks happen. I'm not being critical of Nathan at all, he's very smart! Just stating the extreme differences in their approaches. This really hits on a key issue at work here between our perception of social media and how it can be used. Let's face it - social sites are great for internet marketing, they're great for SEO - but that's not their purpose. If they were to be opened up to SEOs exploiting them night and day, if they didn't have constant admin and community vigilance to prevent spam, they would deteriorate to useless wastes of online space. These sites were not and are not created for marketing! They're created for people to interact online, and to revolve around topics of mutual interest, controversy, etc. If your goal is to market using these sites, be sure to approach it with that in mind. Be a part of the conversation and join their communities. In many ways this is an extension of blogging and commenting. Target recently took the public view of "not talking to bloggers." Well, bloggers are talking about them! Showing their cluelessness online, Target is ignoring their consumer base. Like it or not, bloggers have influence and bad news spreads fast - Target needs to get involved and be a part of this for reputation management, brand credibility, customer service and goodwill. Customer service functions now extend to the web. It's so important for companies to have representatives "show up" on blogs and social sites to extend those customer service and PR capabilities. So someone blogs about Target negatively? - have someone respond in the comments. Connect with these communities. This is how to use the interactive web to drive your brand's influence. Rule #1: Your customers are online Rule #2: Stuff spreads fast online Agile and savvy companies are leveraging this in great ways. Smart marketers and consultants are helping them do it. To me it's about transparency, accountability, and open communication using tools that are only going to become more prevalent. Adam Audette http://www.audettemedia.com ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= One Way Links to your Site, by the Hundreds? Yes! Get Traffic and Link Popularity to Your Site from Legitimate, General Interest Web Directories. DomainDrivers Makes It Hassle-Free. Details Here: http://www.domaindrivers.com/directory-submissions.html ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Tom Anson Subject: Professionalism I'd like to thank Ann Richmond for her quick reply to Marty Milette (LED Digest 2583). My feeling is that if business concerns are sometimes in direct conflict with what is morally or legally right, you're in the wrong business. True professionalism can never be immoral or illegal. To think otherwise is the height of unprofessionalism. Tom Anson Anson Aromatic Essentials http://www.therapeutic-grade.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Shel Horowitz Subject: Professionalism > We have learned you have to walk away from > business that you believe is morally > wrong. I am not talking layouts and color > schemes. I am talking really morally > against what you believe... It is a much > smaller world then we think and you never > want to compromise your integrity. You > still have to live with the man in the > mirror. - Ann Richmond, LED 2583 I totally agree -- and in fact, I have a section of Principled Profit: Marketing That Puts People First called "When to Say No to a Sale" -- and the reasons mostly boil down to honesty, integrity, and quality. Shel Horowitz http://www.principledprofit.com ========= Begin Sponsor Message ========= Latest addition => Spam Resistant PHP Form WebSite's Secret Members area access to a collection of Will Bontrager's handy web tools. http://www.willmaster.com/AreaSecret ========== End Sponsor Message ========== -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Peter D'Aprix Subject: Professionalism Professionalism - Part 3 of 3 part 1: http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/1999/190/ part 2: http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/2000/190/ So it took a little time with learning and listening on both our parts, both trying to understand the other's point of view and objectives with some changes for both of us to adjust to and incorporate. (Sorry, the site is still undergoing development and the first container of product still on the high seas so no site launch until the bell sounds). I was ready to walk away from the project if my client insisted on making it a uniquely corporate site while trying to sell to consumers. I knew it would not work effectively and that failure would probably reflect on me, despite my advisory discussions with my client, if the site did not result in a "financial success". My point, is that even though I am a lousy diplomat, even worse sales person, I try my best to engage my clients in full discussions about their web project on all levels. If I feel they are directing me in the wrong direction, based on my years of experience and training, I don't see it as a confrontation but as a learning experience for all concerned, me included. Clients tend to know their business and products best. I, and my partner, tend to know how to get people to become attracted to a company and its products in different media. There needs to be a free and open flow of communication and learning on both parts for a successful web site, ad campaign, TV campaign or any other promotional effort to be successful. If a client is trying to ram a web approach down the throat of a web designer without regard for good web strategy, I think it is the obligation of the designer to exchange ideas with the client and try to understand and nail down what is going on n the client's mind. If the client clearly has no idea of good web strategy and is deaf to the designer's input, I think the designer is advised to tactfully suggest the client find someone else. And lets face it, sometimes it is just a matter of personal chemistry. If a client feels the designer is just not listening to what they want, then, if they have launched the designer on the job and find it is going badly for whatever reason, they need to discuss the problems fully with the designer who may just not have twigged to the main points. If the designer still does not get it, then pay him/her for their time, and try to find someone who does seem to understand what is required, is happy to work within the constraints the client wants and if the web site does not preform as desired, then the client must accept responsibility since it is the client's web strategy that is at fault, not the maker of the site. Lastly, in my experience, so often problems are the result of miss-communications. So often words and expressions that mean one thing to a product engineer or sales executive, mean something different to a designer working in the same language but applying it to different skills. There is no question in my mind that a designer is there to do what the client says they want. But often what they say they want must be translated from their frame of reference to any number of other frames of reference. Therein lie many a stumble. First define your terms. Both designer and client will often find they are really staying the same thing, just not quite understanding each other. So I would recommend for all designers to write up a job description outlining everything you believe the client is asking you to do. Present it to the client along with estimates for each part of the break down. Then send periodic amendments if changes have to be made that have not yet bee discussed or agreed. It is amazing now often clients say "oh, but I did not mean THAT, I meant this." of "You mean I have to pay more if I want that too!?" Better to find points of error before you start the project or additions to the project rather than part way through or when its finished. Adam, you did say you are short on posts, so I indulged myself. But this is an important topic over which many good designer/client relationships end up on the rocks. Peter D'Aprix - Visual Communications http://peterdaprix.com (c) Copyright 1995-2008 Orange Wheel, LLC. 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