| LED Digest 2655: Show Me the Money |
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The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom http://www.AudetteMedia.com : the LED's Publisher Boutique Internet Marketing: SEO, SEM, Social Media http://www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. May 30, 2008 Issue no. 2655 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= <Moderator Comment> ~ New Blog Post, other stuff --== Discussion Board for Non-Profit ==-- ~ Carol Moore "...are there any other products specifically aimed at not for profits..." --== SEO Standards ==-- ~ Shari Thurow "I think you have important things to say." ~ Maty Matyszak "Maybe we need a thread SEO = Sales (SEO is not sales)." ~ Richard Stubbings "...it is easy to measure the effectiveness of SEO." ~ Reg Charie "Wondering why you protest so much when you make a living at designing websites?" ========= NEW ===================================== <Moderator Comment> Greetings LEDer, It's nice to see the "SEO Standards" thread evolve a bit, thanks for the interesting discussion. A few updates: - I wrote a new blog post: 6 Principles of Ethical SEO http://www.audettemedia.com/blog/six-principles-of-ethical-seo - I'll be traveling to Seattle next week for SMX Advanced. If you're attending the conference please get in touch! I'd love to connect with you. I'll be speaking on the "Bot Herding" panel, with a presentation arguing against using nofollow ( http://searchmarketingexpo.com/advanced/2008/full_agenda.php#8 ) - I'm too busy to write anything else! Hope you have a great weekend. -Adam -------------------- From: Carol Moore Subject: low cost membership/web site products & discussion board I've learnt a lot from LED as a non specialist and got great advice on my last query, so here’s hoping for some expert help. I'm involved in setting up a small not for profit which has zilch funds. We're setting up the web site on wordpress. We'll be a membership (with different types of members) and "interested user" organisation issuing ezines, press releases, and mail shots. We also want to have a moderated discussion board, ideally with user registration linked to the membership database. Our key aim is to increase information and awareness on the issue of dual diagnosis. –when people have an addiction and a mental health issue. We want to capture user details via the website but also allowing manual entry and snail mail as some of the people we will be dealing with are not too IT literate. I'm pretty IT literate from a business perspective and fairly logical, but not techy or website development/hosting orientated so it needs to be easy to use and not too time consuming. I'm told Aweber is pretty good, being cheap, doing all the above, maintaining membership details and being easy to use for the membership side of things. I'm also told "moodle" which is free is good for discussion boards, even if the design leaves a lot to be desired. I'm just wondering are there any other product specifically aimed at not for profits that would be better. All advice much appreciated. Carol Moore www.quovadis.ie ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Shari Thurow Subject: SEO standards Hi all- This is in response to the discussion thread about SEO standards, and specifically to some of Al Toman's comments in LED #2653 [ http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/2068/190/ ] and others. First, I want to make a direct response. Al, some of what you write is rather confusing. Maybe you are writing quickly and not thinking out the content of your post to be for the benefit of others. I do not know your circumstances or intent. What I do know is that your posts seem somewhat unorganized and confusing to me. I think you have important things to say. So, if you would not mind, would you please take some extra time in organizing your thoughts and writing in a way that others might comprehend more easily? I AM a developer. Yes, I develop actual site search engines and their corresponding interfaces. Some of my clients are search engine companies. And, to be perfectly honest, if you are confusing me, you are probably confusing others. I am not writing this to be rude and disrespectful. As I wrote previously, I believe you have important things to communicate. It would help me (and hopefully others) if you would perhaps write in a different manner. That being said, I have no issues if people ask the same thing of me. So, interestingly, I like this topic, though I don't know if the subject line "SEO standards" is appropriate or not. Al raised some good points. I believe SEO can mean both search engine optimization and search engine optimizer. Their usages should be taken in context, and (hopefully) the writers should provide meaningful context when they use this abbreviation. I also believe the usage of the phrase "search engine" has different meanings. In some of Al's posts (I believe, and please correct me if I am mistaken), he is differentiating site search engines and the commercial Web search engines. I think overall, when referring to SEO as an abbreviation for both, people assume the commercial Web search engines. I understand that. But for a very, very long time, I have seen that when optimizing actual Web sites (not some of the bogus cloaked garbage), another real benefit is that site search engine results become more accurate. I am always comparing data from the commercial search engines and data from site search engines. Based on those numbers, I fine tune Web pages to truly respond to users' intents. So Al "show me the money" Toman (that is a silly grin on my face, not meant to be negative), that is where I earn my income for both myself and my clients. My goal is to truly understand the users' intent and design, code, script, program, etc. accordingly. Incorporate those things into business goals. And voila! An effective Web site. To be perfectly honest, I am not convinced most search engine optimizers follow my methodology. Maybe parts of it. I still believe the overriding concern is rankings (and money) at the expense of user experience. Sorry, long post. My 2 cents. Sincerely, Shari Thurow, Founder and SEO Director Omni Marketing Interactive www.search-usability.com ============ Sponsor Message =========== Writerfind.com, established in 1998, specializes in connecting professional freelance writers with clients. The site caters to: * freelance business communicators who have a 'way with words' along with industry experience * freelance journalists who have substantial experience writing articles for magazines and journals There is a charge for freelancers to be listed, but no charge for clients to search the database and post jobs. Writerfind.com - http://www.writerfind.com ============ Sponsor Message =========== -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Maty Matyszak Subject: SEO standards > Showing the money is an interesting idea - > it strikes me that if your name is 1st in > Google, then anyone looking for you by name > will find you (you were 2nd when I looked, > but I know how that goes). So, people who > already know you, and know what you do can > find you in Google. Or dial 411. Where is > the money in that? - John Smart, LED 2654 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/2069/190/ An interesting point - for those with business websites in the USA (some of us dam furriners don't even know what dialling 411 does). However, I always thought that SEO was about getting found by visitors, not about making a profit from them. Doesn't marketing do that? Maybe we need a thread SEO = Sales (SEO is not sales). But people who know you, or know of you, might as a result decide to do business with you - if you can be found easily enough. Sometimes people who know your work don't know how to reach you. I started the website given here for just that reason. On the more general topic of 'showing the money' apart from the fact that some websites that use SEO don't need and don't want to be 'shown the money', I always thought that SEO was about moving you from an obscure back lane on the global village, and plonking you down on the main street. Once you are there, what happens next is up to you. If you are selling (for example 'Gordon Brown for King' t-shirts) all the SEO in the world won't show any money. For those who don't know Gordon Brown - you may, or may not, be able to find out about him by dialling 411. Maty Matyszak www.matyszakbooks.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Richard Stubbings Subject: SEO standards For me it is easy to measure the effectiveness of SEO. If my income from my e-commerce site goes up and stays up then SEO is working for me. A few years back I paid a SEO firm to optimise one of my sites. My visitors doubled and my income doubled in the next 6 months. Money well spent. Richard Stubbings www.kultureshock.co.uk -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Reg Charie Subject: SEO standards > I'm not a trained web page optimizer for > search engines, however, I too can > relatively easily establish #1's-#10's on > Google SERPs #1. Big whoop! - Al Toman Al, Easy to say. But it leaves me wondering. Wondering why you protest so much when you make a living at designing websites? Shouldn't you, with your vast knowledge, secure in how easy it is to get top rankings, and with your comprehensive knowledge of ROI, offer SEO to your clients? Wondering why you are so fixated on the definition of the word as it pertains to optimizing sites or tweaking the search engines themselves? I found one post from you back in '06 where you are stuck in the same vein. Surely, anyone with half a brain understands that we, (the collective group), are discussing the modifications to web pages in order to improve search engine positions. > 1) What are the search terms? > > 2) What is the actual cost to benefit ratio > (ROI)? > > 3) Bottom line, how much money did you put > into my pocket? (note that not all web > pages that should be optimized for search > engines are monetary based) The search terms are immaterial. They were researched and cover the full spectrum of the client's offerings. There are varying amounts of competing sites with some terms showing over a million and as low as a couple of hundred thousand. Cost to benefit? One purchase from one client would cover the cost. The benefit depends on how many are searching for that product. The more that come into the site, and converted, the higher the ROI. As with ROI, continual usage will determine the amount of money put in their pockets. However, regardless of the amount, it is going in their pockets because of work I did. > If you search "al toman" in Google, the > search term pointing to me dominates the > entire SERP #1 of some 11,200,000 > possibilities. Can I get some of what you are smoking Al? If you search "al toman" you get 629 listing. Or at least that is what I see. Of these 629, 139 are shown and fully half those do not apply to you. Your website shows up at #26 For a chuckle Google "Reg Charie" 83 listed, 83 shown. All seem to be relevant. My primary website shows as #1. > I have a TON of others. Big whoop! You seem to be confusing accidental listings with planned. If you are active online, and search on the long tail, Al Toman or Reg Charie or Jimmie Crack Corn, of COURSE you are going to be found. The fact that in generalized search (without the quotes), there are 10 or 11 million for you and 9 million for me only means that there more Al Tomans in the world then there are Reg Charies. > Because SEO vendors make Google a TON of > cash! Billions! (Well, SEO vendors' clients > do.) Now how do SEO vendor's clients make Google a ton of cash? What warped logic are you using to determine this? Remember, we are talking about organic placement not PPC campaigns.. A very different animal. The SEO Vendor optimizes the client's page. No money goes to Google. After a period of time the page appears in Google. - Still no money to Google. The resulting position determines if the SEO needs tweaking. Either way, still no money got to Google. How does Google make these "billions"? If anything, Google makes the SEO Vendor and the SEO Vendor's Clients billions. Just think of all the SEO jobs that have been done that resulted in good listings and the sales being made from these Al, you are arguing semantics regarding the definition of the term SEO. > Who Does Not Optimize Search Engines? This > SEO Phenomena. Get over it. The vast majority understand how the term is to be applied. Reg Charie http://www.ryze.com/view.php?who=RegDCP (c) Copyright 1995-2008 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education." - George Bernard Shaw |
