| LED Digest 2671: Let's Not Talk SEO |
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The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom http://www.AudetteMedia.com : the LED's Publisher The Internet Marketing Boutique: SEO, SEM, Social Media http://www.SEOToolSet.com/training/ : the LED's Premier Sponsor Bruce Clay's Search Engine Optimization Training & Certification ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. June 27, 2008 Issue no. 2671 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ====== NEW ====================== <Moderator Comment> ~ ICAAN Overhaul --== Craigslist Works! What Else? ==-- ~ Jim Gatton "...can we have a sharing of ideas about what other methods...really work?" <Moderator Comment> ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Quantifying SEO Results ==-- ~ Dirk Johnson "Call me a lone angry voice, if you will. I don't really care." ========= NEW ===================================== <Moderator Comment> Huge news - ICAAN has approved a measure to overhaul the top-level domain name system. Instead of being limited to conventional TLDs, companies will be able to use their brand. Individuals will be able to use their names. And probably lots of other stuff. The news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7475986.stm To me, yes this is huge, but it's going to take a massive change to move the defacto .com. This also may sway the playing field even further in the direction of big business and big money, with early murmurs of the new domain extensions requiring trademark and investments of up to $100,000 USD to secure. Of course if ICAAN were to lower investment costs too much with their open-ended TLD idea, the web would see new levels of trash, spam and worthless sites proliferate. Color me cynical on this one. Very interesting though. -Adam ---------------- From: Jim Gatton Subject: Craigslist really works! So what else am I underutilizing? While all of this great discussion on the topic of SEO has me on the edge of my seat each day waiting for the next exciting chapter, I've suddenly been smacked by another way to obtain traffic to one of my sites. The following is probably old news to most people so I do wish I'd have known about it earlier. Craigslist and similar services? A quick context first. I have a few residential investment properties that I rent out. My norm for years has been to run an ad in a couple of the local newspapers. Response varies but it's hardly overwhelming. On the other hand, it does work. Eventually. Over the last few years I played around with adwords to our website a couple of times promoting "house for rent" or similar. Eh. (Not sure how that "eh" is pronounced but it's a verbal shrug of the shoulders from me.) Got some expensive traffic to our site but that was about it. No phone calls. Poor copywriting on my part, I guess. The other day I thought of Craigslist. I kind of know what it looks like but I've never used it as buyer or seller. The account is free so I decided to give it a try. Wow! Good stuff. Talked with a dozen people over 72 hours, exchanged some emails, and set half a dozen appointments. So I'm hooked on advertising our vacancies there from now on. True, the traffic may turn out to be bringing the wrong crowd but for now the telepone is ringing and people are touring. I like it. Well, if Craislist works for this then maybe it really works for selling tangibles, too? I'll probably discover that driving traffic to a merchant's website is discouraged or forbidden on Craigslist but are there comparable sites around that I should know about if I'm selling hardgoods? Is this considered direct response marketing? Seriously, SEO is really, really exciting to discuss constantly but can we have a sharing of ideas about what other methods or websites similar to Craigslist really work when we're selling red and blue widgets? We need a few new threads anyway, right Adam? Jim Gatton http://vintageriches.com/ <Moderator Comment> Amen to that Jim. You heard him LEDers, let's talk about something other than SEO. This is an internet marketing list, not just an SEO list. Why don't we break out of the mold? Yet the devil in me says... what you're describing with Craigslist actually IS SEO Jim. Part of the problem is how SEO is defined. Sometimes "internet marketing" is happening, it's just lumped into "SEO." It's a sticky wicket (I've been wanting to say that). Anyone else have something to say? -Adam ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Dirk Johnson Subject: SEO results > Why are you so angry with other SEOs? Do > you have an agenda? - Nate Holley, LED 2670 - http://www.led-digest.com/content/view/2085/190/ Nate, this is a long post, as you have asked for a explanation. I actually agree with your assessment, to some extent. To start, I am only frustrated with certain corners of the SEO world, not the whole industry, by any means. When done thoughtfully and professionally, SEO work is a legitimate vocation. More on that later. I do think that I have a rather unique perspective on the SEO world, because of what I do. Joel Lesser, a frequent LED contributor, has a very similar perspective, based on his experience, but he is more diplomatic than myself. Nate, you really do need to walk in my shoes, to understand all of this. You have not had to contend with a barrage of negativity coming your way, from many corners, challenging your livelihood, and with no real facts to back it up. It's not fun. As someone who has been managing proper and respectable link reciprocation campaigns for myself and clients since the 1997, I have been at the front lines of the "reciprocation does not work, is improper, immoral, etc." arguments, ever since they surfaced in about 2003. I guess it was OK to reciprocate for the six years prior to that, and even earlier for some site owners. Gracious and responsible reciprocation is a practice that predates every single search engine, and it is a fundamental marketing concept of the WWW. Curiously, it still works well in 2008. The tone of that discussion has bordered on religious zealotry, from the anti-reciprocation crowd. Please realize that this all came to me. I did not ask for it. I was blissfully doing what I do. I had built a successful business around the practice of managing legitimate link reciprocation opportunities on behalf of my clients who did not want to do it themselves anymore. I'd have preferred to live my life without this controversy. I was, frankly, blind-sided by it all. But, since it landed in my lap, I did have to contend with it. I was certainly not going to quit my business, just because some confused but famous SEO gurus said that what I had been doing was now somehow illegitimate, in their eyes. Most of this is put forward by the so called "celebrities" of the SEO world. When it comes to linking and SEO, they advise people to jump through all manner of hoops that they imagine. It's wasted money and time, when applied in a real world situation. So, I have made something of a hobby of following the pontifications of these self-appointed gurus. I guess I need a better hobby. But since it affects my own livelihood, I have a vested interest to keep my ear to the ground. That myth building is still taking place. The latest fads are with "sculpting" and "siloing", and PR balancing, and a whole host of other things that sound fascinating on paper, yet I see successful sites, by the hundreds, completely ignoring all of this, and holding top positions for very competitive terms. Sooner or later, someone has to ask if this is all just bleeding-edge, "make work" bullshit on the part of some people. Maybe it is, maybe not. I just have reams of data that refutes a lot of it, by analyzing real SERPs. So, Nate, my constituency is the business owner, not the SEO industry. I do not insist that people use us, or even use our methods, to get where they want to be. There are a lot of ways to get there. I just ask people to also consider the cost and effectiveness of their own chosen approach, compare that to their successful competitors, and put these fame-chasing SEO theorists in their place. Calling me angry might be appropriate. That is your choice. Making vigorous arguments against the "common wisdom" is now considered to be "angry" in modern society. I am supposed to shut up and get along with the status quo. Should I be quiet, just because the people who I am calling out are more famous than me? That is not my style. I need to make pointed arguments, in order to get someone to pay attention. I guess I am here to call out the abuses of this industry. Call me a lone angry voice, if you will. I don't really care. The people that I am calling out will never use us as a service vendor. We're far too mundane and practical for their style. Many of the more sane and reliable SEO consultants in this industry do use us as a vendor, so, yes, I am reaching out to those types of people. Best regards, Dirk Johnson www.domaindrivers.com (c) Copyright 1995-2008 Orange Wheel, LLC. 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