Marketing & SEO Discussion List - LED Digest

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From: Shari Thurow

Subject: Multiple sites

> I am thinking of creating additional "sister" web sites...

> The main site would still contain all products. On the

> new sites, I would enrich the content with useful articles...

        - Mark Roberts, LED 2073

Hi all-

This is in response to the thread about building out multiple sites.

I, too, have years of experience in building (or not building)

"sister" sites. I have a very different opinion of some of the

recent posts.

Whenever any business owner decides whether or not to create

multiple sites for the same business, I always balance business

goals and user goals. Quite frankly, I am completely disgusted with

the advice that many search engine marketers and/or optimizers (SEMs

/ SEOs) give. Split this site up and my PageRank goes up. (FYI

everyone - anyone who mentions PageRank and a number between 1 and

10 is an amateur at SEO.) Split your site up so that it is more

keyword focused < nothing but search engine "mythology" IMHO.

#1: Multiple sites often confuse users. Just because a site is

profitable does not mean it is user friendly. I will create put up a

single user-friendly and search-friendly site any day and watch it

outperform the multiple sites. And I mean outperform in every sense

of the word. More qualified search engine traffic. More sales leads

and closed sales.

Watching people sift through search data can be quite fascinating.

Inevitably, users state, "I saw this stuff before. I didn't like it

then, and I don't like it now." Then when you tell them that the

multiple sites are owned by the same company? Go ahead, ask them how

dependable and trustworthy they believe the business is after

finding out that information. If you want someone's personal

information, your site must communicate trust and credibility.

Brand dilution is also a side effect of having multiple sites.

#2: Search engines do not "Add to Cart." I am still rather surprised

that people build sites primarily for search engine positioning

knowing full well Google, Yahoo, MSN Search, etc. will not make

purchase from a site.

Web directory editors are also onto the multiple site strategy

(purely for link development purposes). I am not surprised that

editors will only list a corporate site and not the others.  Search

engine software engineers and Web directory editors have been saying

for years to not split up sites. I wish people would listen. For all

of the effort it takes to maintain multiple sites, you could create

a single good one.

#3: Many "sister" sites are considered search engine spam. Even if a

"sister" site has unique content, or some redundant content, the

purpose of building a "sister" site is often for search engine

positioning. I lost count of the number of sites I've helped get

unbanned or unpenalized due to this whole multiple domain, higher

PageRank mentality.

When I train large corporations, I always show examples of search

engine spam, beginning from obvious spam to less obvious spam.

Without fail, a lot of people disagree with what search engine spam

is and is not.  But that's why I show the less obvious examples

because whether a business owner, Web developer, or SEO likes it or

not, it really doesn't matter if he/she thought the example was

spam. What matters is that a search engine rep thought it was spam.

And guess what? My less obvious spam examples are "sister" sites.

That being said, there are times when multiple sites are

appropriate. Having a Spanish-language site and an English-language

site is acceptable, as long as there are Spanish-speaking customer

service reps at the other end of the Spanish-language site.

It is generally okay to have a corporate site and a shopping site.

Reason? The visitors' intent is very different. People who go to a

corporate site might be investors or journalists. People who go to a

shopping site are researchers and/or buyers. However, if the

corporate site content is not very large, then it is best not to

create 2 sites. What these examples have in common are user-centered

design. These examples strike a balance between user goals and

business goals.

Ultimately, search engines want what their users want. Trust me,

users do not want redundant content in the search results. They

don't want to feel deceived or ripped off. If SEOs don't think they

are deceiving users, maybe you should have an objective, 3rd-party

ask them. You might be surprised by the answer.

Best wishes,

Shari Thurow, Webmaster/Marketing Director

For Free design and marketing tips, visit us at:

http://www.grantasticdesigns.com/tips.html

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Michael Martinez

Subject: Multiple sites

> Herein lies the problem. Who are we? How do

> we answer the phone? We've become a web

> of identities which can lead to customer apprehension,

> needless to say upkeep is a bit cumbersome.

        - Mark Gering, LED 2074

You need to develop a cobranding strategy that informs your

customers of who you actually are.  People are used to dealing with

conglomerates that operate through multiple business names.  It's

okay to say on your Web site, and in all your correspondence with

customers, "We're iGoodz, operating as XXXX PRODUCTS Web site.  When

you do business with XXXX, you're doing business with iGoodz."

I have been purchasing products online from another company which

does this, and they have earned my trust from day one.

But if you look at any of your children's cereal boxes, or your

laundry soap boxes, you're more than likely going to see a corporate

co-branding with a name you recognize.  We have grown up with dual

corporate identities.  We are comfortable with products that say,

"Quantum Cereals is a Galactic Foods Company".

Michael Martinez, Author

Understanding Middle-earth, Parma Endorion, and

Visualizing Middle-earth http://www.michael-martinez.com/

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Alex Hughart

Subject: Multiple sites

Hello LED people,

I am currently involved with a project where the site owner wants to

use subdomains to set up different sites for different countries.

For example: blabla.com will have australia.blabla.com and

uk.blabla.com. The content will be pretty much the same with shopping

carts set up accordingly (multiple storefront Miva Merchant cart).

Any ideas on how will this be viewed by search engines?

Your insights are highly appreciated.

Alex Hughart

www.bonsavon.com

------- new post - new topic ------

From: Sheryl Coppenger

Subject: Learning

Folks,

I apologized for giving distress because it is obvious that my post

did so and it was not my intent to insult or distress anyone.  I

should have, as one person who followed up said, read it through

again before sending it.  What I said came out badly.  I regret

submitting the post stated in that way.  I thought that was implied

if not spelled out by a previous post, but if not I'll spell it out

here.

I tried to explain my intention with the post, and I admitted to

having a personal style that doesn't always translate well to email.

 Does that make it OK no matter what I post?  No.  It just means I

struggle with it.  Similarly, I'm not gifted with a metabolism where

I can eat anything I want.  I didn't use it as an excuse to gain

more weight -- I've actually lost 40 pounds over the last 4 years.

But it's a struggle and sometimes I slip up.  I'm human.

I'd like to thank Adam for his support.  But I would submit that

*anyone* deserves the benefit of the doubt.  Mr. Rothberg complained

that I said the reader takes some responsibility for their reaction.

 Well, OF COURSE the reader takes some responsibility.  As the

saying goes, it takes two to have an argument.  When you read a post

and don't like it, you make a decision about whether it was malign

or just clumsy. You decide whether to ignore, post or handle it in

private email. Email to the person or the moderator.  The tone of

the email. And your reaction may say more about you than it says

about the poster you've reacted to in the end, thanks to the choices

you have made.

If it's never OK to get personal, as Mr. Rothberg says, then it's

never OK to get personal.  And IMO two people got *very* personal

with me here.

As Adam pointed out, I've been on this list 5 years and posted 70

times.  If I were a jerk who just liked to hang out and stir things

up that would have come out long before now.  Mr. Rothberg wants me

to confess to intent that I didn't have.  I'm not going to lie to

keep the peace.

What I will do is unsubscribe from the list and pull the plug on a

destructive exchange.  I apologize for being the cause of the

exchange.  It *was* unintentional.

Regards,

Sheryl Coppenger

<Moderator Comment>

I've expressed to Sheryl off-list that I would be very disappointed

to see her go. Mistakes happen to *all of us*. The best thing we can

do is to learn from them and move forward.

Please join me in urging Sheryl to stay an LEDer by posting via the

email below. I will then send these messages on to Sheryl (this

bypasses the problem of publishing her email address, which I'd like

to avoid).

Save an LEDer!

Best wishes,

adam

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Vicki Lambert

Subject: Learning

I think this topic is indicative of the U.S. specifically and maybe

the world in general. Not being in touch with the whole world I

realize that is a broad statement.

I am always getting e-mails that tell me if I don't agree with it

then just delete it but by all means don't disagree or argue with

me!  It seems that debate, discussion or disagreement is no longer

allowed.  That the free and open debate of a view point is now

considered rude, stupid or insulting.

> ... take from LED what you will. Make your own judgments

> as to the validity and usefulness of the posts. Agree or disagree.

> Ask questions. Add your own 2 cents. But don't tell me

> what I can or can not say.

        - Steve Pronger, LED 2075

I agree with this post, if you don't like how the forum is conducted

then take what you can and move on.  I take my own advice on this

matter.  I read the forum each day, but most of the time it is not

to my taste, or needs or "where my head is currently at."  But every

once in a while I get a good tip, or a new thought or a different

slant on something that helps me.

Vicki Lambert

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Bill Davison

Subject: Learning

RE: Salem Kashou LED 2074

IMHO Salem, here are some tips that may help "sift the wheat from

the chaff":

- Some posters hang around newsletters constantly attempting to

author profound opinions using every buzzword they've learned and

are desperately waiting to be recognized as that subject's guru.

Because they rarely work you can quickly spot these from the number

of their posts.

- There are other posters who in their ambition to be recognized as

numero uno, will disagree and fire off insulting treatises on every

post whose reality is inevitable.

- ... and then there are those who are either searching for an

answer or simply sharing good / bad experiences in order to help /

prevent others.

Therefore, Salem just ignore the wannabes and look for the latter.

Be patient, there really are some valuable gems amongst all the

nonsense.

Bill Davison

bizwebpage.com

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Renee Kennedy

Subject: Learning

Salem,

I may be misunderstanding you.  But, I don't understand how we can

"pull this information together."

We discuss many different topics on this list ranging from SEO to

the most recent discussion of online Radio.  They may all be lumped

into the topic of "Internet Marketing," but I see companies

realizing the need to hire specialists in each area.

For instance, I'm an SEO, so I am much more interested in the

conversations revolving around SEO.  I do read the other posts and

they do broaden my knowledge - but to bring all these things

together under one roof - I just don't know if that's even possible.

Do you want an overall "internet marketing" philosophy that we

should all live by?  Don't you think it's good to have diverse

opinions?  That's what makes the conversation lively.  That's what

makes us grow and challenges us.

Renee Kennedy

http://www.e-healthlinks.com: Add your healthcare website today, it's free.

==== BILLBOARD ===================================

From: Sarah Hayes

Subject: Scam

> I just received a rather strange email. My first thought

> was that it was just another twist of the Nigerian letters...

        - Tom Anson, LED 2074

419 scams are so called after the section 419 of the Nigerian

Criminal Code which relates to advanced fee fraud. These scams have

been around a lot longer than the Internet. In fact there are cases

dating back to 16th century and were originally sent by post and

some scams like the Spanish Lottery scam still are.

There are thousands of variations on the 419 scam, see

www.scambuster419.co.uk/orphanagedirectorii.htm and

www.scambuster419.co.uk/vicarii.htm these seems similar to the email

you received. They all have one thing in common, they offer you

money for nothing but first you have to pay some kind of tax or fee

to release the money and of course the money doesn't really exist.

I was recently a member of a court jury on a 419 scamming case. It

was very interesting, but I was shocked at the number of people who

fall for it and how much money the scammers make. Some people pay

multiple amounts of money still believing that they will get the

money. The scammers will even meet with victims and show them

suitcases full of money to reassure them.

These scams are well organised and big business. They have offices;

call centres etc to make it all seem legitimate. If pushed these

people can become very nasty, apparently there have been cases where

people have travelled to African countries to track down the

scammers and ended up dead.

Just delete the email and don't be tempted to respond it is a scam.

Best regards,

Sarah Hayes

------- new post - same topic ------

From: Kathryn Martyn

Subject: Scam

Just hit delete. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck.

Kathryn Martyn, M.NLP

http://www.onemorebite-weightloss.com

------- new post - new topic -------

From: Jenny Halasz

Subject: Google

> Recently, one of my sites has totally disappeared from Google

> and I haven't made any changes to its content. I am baffled.

        - Marsha Kopan, LED 2074

Hi Marsha,

Without having some sample keywords to test, I can't say for sure

why you dropped in rankings on Google. However, there are a couple

of duplicate content issues with the site that you may want to

correct. The first is canonical, www vs. non URLs, and the second is

consistent internal linking. I wrote another post on this that you

may find helpful. It's geared towards MSN, but applies to all search

engines. Pay particular attention to #1 and #3.

http://blog.kowabunga.com/archives/2005/11/ask_the_sem_exp_2.html

Best of luck!

Jenny L. Halasz

www.marketsmartinteractive.com

------- new post - same topic ------

From: Michael Linehan

Subject: Google

> Unless you are doing some serious search

> engine spamming, it is extremely rare that

> anyone has "totally disappeared from Google".

        - Mike Banks Valentine, LED 2075

I don't know if it is literally extremely rare - but I found out

it's easier to get banned than I would have thought.

My clients' sites are VERY clean -- I'm way on the 'white hat' side

of SEO.  I don't spam the search engines.  I never did use link

farms. And so on.  But a few months ago on one client's site, I

wrote on the HTML sitemap (who knows why!?), "This sitemap is

intended for search engines only. Readers please use the navigation

to the left."

Google's computers kindly told us the site was banned and that this

phrase was the specific and only reason for banning.  Fixed it.

Submitted the XML sitemap.  No go.  A few cordial emails back and

forth over the next two months, and the situation was eventually

corrected.  My client is back, with decent rank.

So - a very nasty surprise.  Perhaps it's useful for folks to know

that one phrase wrong can be all it takes.

Michael Linehan, Marketing Alchemy

www.marketing-alchemy.com

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