Marketing & SEO Discussion List - LED Digest

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From: David Yancey

Subject: Local search

> We'd certainly enjoy an update by David as to the success

> of Vivante and his opinion of local search 2 years later.

        - Jim Berry, LED 2077

Greetings Adam, and all my LED pals:

Thanks to Jim Berry for his interest in my views on the state of

local search. I’ll answer Jim’s questions in two parts, if Adam will

indulge.

First, here’s where we (the search industry) are, exactly three

years after the launch of our www.vivante.com, the first search site

to truly integrate “global” search results with locally focused

listings and sites.

For all their success in indexing billions of pages and selling paid

ads, the big guys have still basically avoided the challenge of

showing a locally-oriented searcher ALL relevant results in a

single, cleanly organized, choice-rich SERP array. The “leaders” of

search have opted instead to copy the old Yellow Page model of

search, simply adding clever maps and driving instructions and the

like to what are, in essence, telephone listings with (where they

are available) website links.

I cannot really make the case for more integrated search platforms

in a short LED post, so I will simply say that there is still a

mental split in the minds of search designers and engine

entrepreneurs. To these presumed experts, a user is either searching

in the old traditional “let me see all relevant info and pages”

mode, OR is “shopping”, OR is ordering a pizza, OR is looking for

local event info. They ignore the fact that all this “finding

behavior” is by the same person.

In turn, “search” still misses the hidden part of the iceberg,

namely, impulse-clicking. If one defines search as EITHER a “global”

experience, OR a sexed-up phone book experience, OR, as the shopping

sites do, a price-comparison exercise, then one will never create

the kind of finding experience that would be revolutionary from the

consumer’s point of view.

We can bring all this down to a simple example:  give the consumer a

tool where she can simply enter “Cuisinart”, and, ON ONE INTEGRATED

SET OF PAGES, see recipes for food processors, techniques for using

them, alternative brands to “Cuisinart”, books about this type of

food preparation, local stores that sell the things, local cooking

classes, and even a paid listing for the cooking vacation seminar

she dreams of attending in the South of France.

Looked at from the typical advertiser’s point-of-view, there’s

little value in showing a potential customer all this “useless” and

diversionary “related information”. Advertisers simply are not

confident that people will click through when they have so many

choices. It is the old-style, pre-cable, broadcast channel mindset,

still. And since, contrary to the quaint notion still held by many

of serving web users honestly, the number one mission of Google and

its near-peers is to serve advertisers, it’s not surprising that the

effort to create a truly comprehensive, one-stop, resource-rich

search experience has not emerged yet -- even though we have all the

tools and platforms needed to make it happen.

In short, then, Jim, “local search” is NOT the real goal. The real

goal is, on the one hand, to augment “local” search with “global”

content and choices, and hence, trigger the impulses to look for

related info and products, and, on the other hand, to augment

”global” search with “local” choices, making it easy for the person

reading about Italy to order a pizza.

Looked at from this perspective, the search industry is way short of

the goal. It means there are *lots* of opportunities yet.

Sure, Google and the two giants desperate to keep pace with G rule

the roost in search, for sure, for now. But this success masks a

much more dramatic reality:  a true revolution is underway as,

thanks to the internet, smart telecommunications, and a host of PCs

and computer-based devices, consumers (and business buyers) are

quickly changing their “finding behavior”. This will mean a radical

re-channeling of business advertising and marketing expenditures. We

in search are mainly focused on the $25 billion or so mentioned

above, but the actual amount of marketing money that is at stake is

closer to *eight or ten times* that amount globally. There is a

literal *flood* of new opportunities for interactive

business-assistance and marketing services coming. Is it any

surprise that mighty Google, now that they can print money, is

rapidly trying to position itself in radio and television and “media

buying exchange”?

In Part Two of this post, I’ll comment directly on the specifics of

“local search”, where we as an industry are, and the major hill we

all have yet to climb.

As to our www.vivante.com’s progress, thanks for asking, Jim! We are

slowly growing, with typically a quarter million or so searches per

month. We are unfunded, so cannot promote our particular solution in

any dramatic way yet, much less add the several dozen enhancements

at the top of our development wish-list. We do have a plan to make

Vivante even more clearly a niche-focused site (oriented especially

to educated women), including certain community features.

For our part, we’ll continue the outsider path, looking for ways to

help “local” as well as “national” (web-based) and other smaller

businesses target their search spend more effectively. In the

meantime, we’ll also be having fun with our brand new humorous

graphics business. ;) (See the special link for LEDers, below.)

My best to all for a very prosperous 2006!

David Yancey

http://www.tootoographic.com/ga/spled01.html -- “Styles with Smiles”

(LEDers please use the above special URL when you visit us -- and

bring your sense of humor!)

------- new post - new topic -------

From: Vicki M. Lambert

Subject: Site maps

> Site maps are often the only salvation a site with "navigation"

> offers to otherwise interested and motivated users.

        - Michael Martinez, LED 2077

I have to say that site maps are a main staple of my internet use.

I try to find what I need by the navigation guides but I am too busy

and have too many sites to go to daily to fuss with trying to find

what I need.  If I can't on the first couple of tries I go right to

the site map and can usually find it.  If a site doesn't have a site

map, then I am off to someone else's site to find what I need.

Vicki Lambert

------- new post - new topic -------

From: David Spahr

Subject: Multiple Sites for Marketing

> I am thinking of creating additional "sister" web sites...

> The main site would still contain all products. On the

> new sites, I would enrich the content with useful articles...

        - Mark Roberts, LED 2073

I have done this with good success. After opening stereoviews.com

and having decent success with it, I opened stereoviews.info, a

links page where I sell some advertising. The income is relatively

minor but far more than my hosting costs me. It is a very low

maintenance site. It directs people to my sites as well as all

others on the page.

I opened stereoviews.de and stereoviews.co.uk this past year.

Stereoviews.de has material that is directed at European buyers.

Stereoviews.co.uk is directed at Great Britain. These sites have

been surprising. They have generated very decent income on their own

and gotten these visitors to my other sites as well. They have

jumped right up in the searches. Merchandise I have had great

difficulty selling is doing very well now.

Stereoviews.com, .de, and co.uk all share the same links page. The

sites are all heavily cross linked in other areas. They all have

similar but different content.

Antique-photography.com is also part of this mix. It is an online

auction. It has done far less well than the others. It costs very

little to run though and allows me to run incoming inventory through

it with at least some sales. I do save thousands by not using ebay

to sell. It does get fairly decent traffic and also directs people

to my other sites. It is No. 1 on all search engines for the search

"antique photography" which is a really excellent thing. All of

these sites place well in Google, Yahoo and MSN (and most everywhere

else). I sell stereoviews (and most other types of antique

photography). I place #1,2,5, and 6 for a search of "stereoviews" on

Google. Yahoo is even better (#1 through 11,14,16,20). MSN is very

good too (#1,2,3, 12, 14. and 17).

Selling a few items on ebay using some strategies I outlined

recently on this list should help build traffic as well.

Building "sister sites" has had a synergistic effect for me. It has

cost me very little money. It has been mostly just my time and the

wear and tear on the seat of my pants. You can get truly great

hosting very inexpensively these days. Ask me about my really great

host.

David Spahr

stereoviews.info

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Shari Thurow

Subject: Multiple sites

Hi all-

This is in response to multiple threads about multiple sites. I knew

this was a hot topic, and I figured that my opinion and experience

is quite different from others.

Regarding Renee's network of separate health sites [Renee Kennedy,

issue 2077]? Well, WebMD is one of my clients, and some of their

"sister" sites have been either penalized or banned from the search

engines. (For the record, I didn't build the "sister" sites nor did

I promote them. I told WebMD to get rid of them.) MedicineNet also

had a network of "sister" sites. Banned from Google, which is why

MedicineNet came to me in the first place -- to help them get

unbanned.

So I absolutely do not agree with Ms. Kennedy's opinion on building

different health sites. It does not matter whether or not anyone

agrees with me. The bottom line is that Google, Yahoo, and other

large search engines considered these types of sites to be spam.

Software engineers determined that many "sister" sites were created

deliberately to exploit the engines, and they were promptly

penalized.

I honestly believe that my previous post holds water, so to speak.

All I hear is "user user user." How many of you have really asked

your users what they thought? A set of real usability tests? I don¹t

mean site statistics data, which is not user testing at all. And I

also don't mean you, the Web site owner, asking family members or

friends what they think. I mean an objective, 3rd-party usability

firm asking the hard questions to users about multiple sites.

I understand that this group is going to have its own anecdotal

evidence to share, as will I. But there is a huge difference between

anecdotal evidence and hard data. When I crunch my numbers from user

tests (both formative and summative), Web analytics data, site

search engine data, etc., both users and Web search engines show a

resounding preference for single domains with plenty of useful

content.

I would not split up different types of cancer into different sites.

One of my clients is the National Cancer Institute. Their site isn't

split up into multiple domains. Reason? It confuses users. Believe

me, this site has no problems with search engine traffic and

conversions.

If Web site owners want to go the multiple domain route, fine.

You're the Web site owner. It is always your choice. My choice is

not to go the multiple domain route. I'd rather spend my clients'

money on building an outstanding user-friendly and search-friendly

Web site.

Best wishes,

Shari Thurow, Webmaster/Marketing Director

Search Engine Visibility book now available

http://www.searchenginesbook.com/

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Mark Roberts

Subject: Multiple Sites

First of all, I want to thank Tom Anson and all of the others that

responded to my post, both on and off list. The information has been

very enlightning and informative and gives me a lot to think about.

I would expect nothing less from all the fine people on this list.

One of the reasons that spawned the initial post is that, as a web

develpment person, one of my clients that I began servicing a couple

of years sells one type of product. When he came to me, he brought

his 3 existing web sites. All selling the same product. The pages

look different, have a different design and presentation. They all

have the same pictures, products and wording.

One thing that has always puzzled me about these web sites is that

one (or another) always appears high on the Google search results

page (using the same search argument). Each of these site has

essentially the same meta tags, site description, etc. Yet, One

rates as high as 4 or 5 on the first page and the others are burried

deep as on pages 30 + or deeper. I have never been able to figure

this out (and not wanting to necessarily start another discussion

about search engine positioning or if we should really care about

it).

I know from personal experience that by searching using the

arguments "bird houses" "bird feeders" "bat houses", etc. you can't

even find my site...unless you include my name in the search. Yet I

get a remarkable number of sales from my web site. Other people seem

to find it, even if I can't.

Not really a question here as much as just to say thanks. Thanks!

Right now I think I will just start new sites as I have time using

such content as to why bird feeding is important, how to feed, and

environmental value of birding.

Mark Roberts

Roberts Computing Systems

http://www.robertscomputing.com

------- new post - new topic ------

From: Diane Dennis

Subject: Learning

> Sheryl Coppenger's post... is

> (in my opinion) rude.

        - Michael Linehan, LED 2072

Hi All!

I too was offended, at first.  But then I got to thinking...

In a sense this is way off topic but then again it's not.  There are

certain syndromes (such as Asperger's Syndrome) that, believe it or

not, can cause a person to think they're making a funny joke when in

fact they are insulting the other person.

They are typically highly intelligent individuals but their social

skills can be from absolutely nil to minimal at best.  I am

constantly having to remind our daughter that our son is not trying

to insult her, but that rather he thought he was making a funny joke.

"Aspies" (Asperger's Syndrome sufferers) are also VERY literal in

their understanding and speech and because of this, appear to "pull

no punches" and are often considered as being very rude.  They're

also easily offended because of the literal aspect.

My point for bringing this up is that Asperger's Syndrome (and other

PDD-NOS syndromes) is hugely on the rise, I believe there are more

sufferers out there than anyone is aware of, and a majority of AS

sufferers get VERY into computers.

There could very easily be "Aspies" that contribute to this

discussion list. I'm not saying Sheryl is an "Aspie" but what I am

saying is that because most folks are not trying to offend us with

what they write, maybe we need to step back and not get upset when

someone writes something that does offend us.

Instead maybe we can take a look at it and realize that it is

entirely possible that the offender was NOT trying to offend and

indeed had absolutely no ill-will whatsoever.  Maybe the offender

just needs help with their social skills.

Besides which, not taking it personal helps keep the blood pressure

down! :)

Just some thoughts...

Have a wonderful day!

Diane Dennis

http://www.aspergers-and-pdd.com

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From: Nancy Schettler

Subject: MSN Listings

We've had some interesting posts lately regarding Google listings

(thanks, fellow subscribers)... but I have a question about MSN.

Though most of my traffic (and sales) come from Google (or Yahoo), I

certainly do better when my two sister sites (

www.awelldressedkitchen.com and www.favoritefabrics.com ) can be

found in MSN. Apparently they are in MSN's database (somewhere),

but when I search for the name of my site ("A Well Dressed

Kitchen"), what appears in the search results is lots of links TO

the site - hardly any of which I solicited! - but I went through the

first 10 pages of results, and still could not find any results from

my own site. ?? Really, truly, I used to be findable!

I don't have time to check rankings very often... it's when things

get slow that I start to look for the reason why... and it seems

that it was around December 26th or 27th that I stopped getting any

significant visitors from MSN.

The timing was the same for my second site, "Favorite Fabrics"...

again, MSN traffic dwindled to nothing after 12/26. I suppose I

should just give thanks that at least the traffic lasted through the

holiday shopping season.

Has anybody else noticed this? Anyone out there have any ideas what

is going on, or what to do?

Nancy Schettler

A Well Dressed Kitchen

www.awelldressedkitchen.com

------- new post - new topic ------

From: Vicki M. Lambert

Subject: Scam

> I just received a rather strange email. My first thought

> was that it was just another twist of the Nigerian letters...

        - Tom Anson, LED 2074

I have been getting those e-mails since day one and I also find it

hard to believe that any one would fall for them.  But I actually

get a big kick out of it when I receive one.

I love reading them and seeing what new twist will be in this one.

Is it the son or the widow? Is it an old lady dying alone and trusts

no one but me? I know it's a bit on the bizarre side, kind of like

watching the Jerry Springer show but hey, when you work alone in an

office on your computer all day long, you take your fun where you

can, LOL.

But you cannot be inheriting this money since she sent me that

letter over two months ago so I am the one who is getting all the

money to give to the poor.  I should have it just as soon as the

check I sent her lawyer clears the bank... ; - )

Vicki Lambert

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