Marketing & SEO Discussion List - LED Digest

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From: David Yancey

Subject: Local Search

The State of Local Search -- Part Two:

Jim Berry asked in LED # 2077 for my views on “local search”. Jim

didn’t specifically say so, but my reading of his and others’

comments suggest that the question is really: “Why is it taking so

long to develop truly original and comprehensive tools for local

search”? Here’s my view:

1. No major engine to my knowledge is looking at “local search” as

anything more than an extension of shopping behavior. Clearly, and

understandably, their interest is primarily in going after the

roughly US$25 billion in local business search-related advertising

expenses. I expect the big SEs to continue to make further inroads

into the Yellow Page turf, since the IYPs (interactive Yellow Pages)

are incredibly sluggish as well as vulnerable. But as entertaining

as this bloodsport may be to us insiders, it’s not significantly

enhancing search capability from a local user’s perspective.

2. Google and others are finally beginning to build a bridge between

search-type listings and user (or newsletter subscriber) ZIP codes.

This is long overdue, from my perspective as a web publisher, since

it promises to be the Holy Grail for those publisher and membership

websites who have been wise enough to capture user / member /

subscriber ZIP info. Specifically, it will allow us to provide

AdSense-like ads that are not only content-related, but also

geo-specific in many cases. This is the way to bring about some of

those missing “impulse clicks” I was going on about in Part One of

this post. Ahhh, but how many “local” businesses, or national ones,

either, have built solid, opt-in, content-rich, truly added-value

newsletters...?

3. Similarly, a decade into the Web Era, and three years into “local

search”, very few local businesses are using the many competing

tools effectively. As a few of us predicted when GoTo first

appeared, followed shortly after by Google and its arcane PageRank

concept, the search marketing learning curve is very steep for most

businesses, even the larger ones. The complexities of “auction

bidding” are harder than ever to master, and SEO may as well be

alchemy for all the business operators who have a clue how their web

pages are viewed by “bots” and “spiders”.

Also as predicted, a huge new consulting industry has bloomed, but

rather than shed light on all this black magic, the SEM/SEO folks

have made it seem even *less* clear to the very folks now spending,

according to my respected colleague Kevin Lee, nearly $6 billion

annually for search marketing and related expertise -- see

http://www.clickz.com/experts/search/strat/article.php/3577161.

And finally, as also predicted way back, the sales forces of the

Yellow Pages companies, with their much-touted *local* presence,

have so far failed to demonstrate any ability to educate local

businesses on the art of generating online leads. There is a common

view IMO that says “Wait until we have the right ‘wizards’ and

‘tools’ to make all this complexity understandable and manageable by

local businesses, and then local search will take off, because the

local YP reps won’t need to be re-purposed for the interactive age.”

I respectfully suggest not holding one’s breath in anticipation of

said nirvana.

4. The shopping engines, which one would think would be jumping all

over the opportunities in local search, have focused instead on the

needs of national retailers, both chain stores and online sellers.

The problem of educating local retailers to “feed” their product

data is just not worth the ensuing piddly revenues, apparently. This

masks the real problem, namely that the way paid search is

structured, it is basically not economically viable for a small

store or local chain. The related problem is that the shopper sites

are totally focused on GOODS, not services, meaning they simply

ignore a very large chunk of local consumption needs.

5. There are a few startups which are trying other ways to enhance

search from a local perspective. Among the more interesting is

www.beanpool.com, in Atlanta, who are trying to put local search

into the context of a “community”. Having originated the phrase

“finding communities” about four years ago, I wish these guys

success. But even if it proves a hit, and can then be replicated in

other urban areas, it will still be another case of “finding

fragmentation”, since global-type results will not be integrated.

6. Specialized and “niche” search is still in its infancy. I still

believe strongly in the future of (market) “niche” search sites and

also so-called “vertical” search engines. But with the stunning

financial success of Google, most who might invest in such platforms

and startups are demanding “the next Google”, which is totally

unrealistic. Instead, most startups I am aware of (not including our

www.vivante.com) are mainly interested in being bought out by Google

ASAP. So, IMO, if a niche site is to have a chance, it will be by

totally focusing on a market or special interest segment. It will

need to be richer in its specialty than a big,

all-things-to-all-people engine can hope to be.

7. The 800 pound gorilla in “local search” is going to be “event

information”. The SEs and also the Yellow Pages crowd are just not

geared for handling dynamic event posting yet. This is still

regarded, it seems, as the newspapers’ turf, more or less. That is

going to change fast, because this area can produce $ billions in

paid-clicks. So it’s a safe bet that Google and others are drooling

over this massive revenue stream.

8. Local classifieds are the *other* 800 pound gorilla in local

search. These share essentially the same technical requirements as

local events, so it’s a cinch that the lion’s share of this US$15

billion annual revenue stream will be dominated by the SEs and their

partners, in time.

Putting all these observations together, I’d estimate that “local

search” is, IMO, maybe 25% along its ultimate evolutionary path in

technology terms, and less than 10% (of its potential) in annual

revenue terms.

Lots of opportunities on the horizon, LEDers! And we don’t need to

be “the next Google” to take full advantage of them.

David Yancey

http://www.tootoographic.com -- “Styles with Smiles”

(LEDers please use this special link when you visit us the first

time: http://www.22gshop/ga/spled01.html -- and bring your sense of

humor! Speaking of which, the special LED link in Part One was coded

incorrectly, proving that even old gray veterans can still make the

dumbest mistakes online! You newer folks are not alone!) -David

------- new post - new topic -------

From: Tom Aman

Subject: Multiple sites

> I sell stereoviews (and most other types of antique photography).

> I place #1,2,5, and 6 for a search of "stereoviews" on Google.

> Yahoo is even better (#1 through 11,14,16,20). MSN is very

> good too (#1,2,3, 12, 14. and 17).

        - David Spahr, LED 2078

> Software engineers determined that many

> "sister" sites were created deliberately to exploit

> the engines, and they were promptly penalized.

        - Shari Thurow, LED 2078

I agree with Shari.  Why build multiple, so called "sister sites"?

What is the advantage?  Do these really place any better in search

engine results than a single site with sub-sections, provided the

single site has good navigation that the search engine can spider

properly?  The multiple site approach is certainly not very friendly

for the user.  It clogs search results with annoying duplications.

It may seem a good way to do SEO but, as Shari says, do any of you

know what the users think?

David has multiple domains for his stereoviews and takes lots of

positions near the top of different search engine results for the

"stereoviews" search term.  Taking postions 1 through 11,14,16,20

may sound great from an SEO point of view, but it is damned annoying

from a surfer's point of view.

I am interested in stereo photos so I will give a user opinion on

this.  I wish David would get rid of the multiple domains and bring

it all under one site.  It is MOST annoying when doing a search to

find the top positions being taken up by what is essentially the

same site.  It wastes a lot of time weeding through these to find

the other sites of interest and the annoyance factor keeps getting

higher when I keep coming back to essentially the same site or

information.

David, if I had ONE search result returned for all of your sites and

that took me to a page that would let me get to any of the

sub-sections of interest easily, I would be a *much* happier surfer

and would be more likely to visit you site more often.  It would

also let me get to the exact thing I wanted much faster.

David's sites are not the only ones where this happens.  I keep

hitting this problem over and over when I am searching.  And on

terms I search regularly, I have learned the domains of many of the

sites that do this and try to avoid them whenever I can (i.e. by not

clicking on those particular results).

I was just thinking the other day that there seems to be a great

deal of effort and money being put into SEO (Search Engine

Optimization).  Why? Search engine spiders don't buy anything, don't

need any services, aren't interested in anyone's thoughts.  What Web

sites really need is UEO (User Experience Optimization).  Sounds

like Shari is on that track.  I believe that, if more effort were

put into UEO, SEO would follow without any added special effort

(except possibly for META tags in the HEAD section of the document

if you feel that makes a difference).

How about a whole new thread on UEO.  We have lots of SEO experts

here.  Do we have any UEO experts?

Tom Aman

Aman Software

http://www.cyberspyder.com

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From: Donald Baker

Subject: MSN

> ... it's when things get slow that I start to look

> for the reason why... and it seems that it was

> around December 26th or 27th that I stopped

> getting any significant visitors from MSN.

        - Nancy Schettler, LED 2078

When I read your post, Nancy, my first question was whether you'd

been getting MSN-referred visitors via the Yahoo Search Marketing

(YSM, formerly Overture) pay-per-click network. MSN Search has been

slowly replacing YSM PPC results with those from its new adCenter

PPC system.

If you're running YSM ads, it's possible your ads have stopped

showing on MSN within the past month. As studies have shown that MSN

searchers click on PPC ads more than Yahoo or Google users, you

could've been getting many MSN-referred visitors from PPC, but MSN

replaced your YSM ads with its own customers', just after Christmas.

I don't know.

It's also strange that your MSN visitors should drop off immediately

after Christmas, as our clients' retail-oriented sites show

continued gift-related sales well into January, before a drop-off in

February. Maybe MSN did an index shuffle that knocked you out of the

top rankings -- I ran a quick search on "table runners" and didn't

see awelldressedkitchen.com in the top three pages. (As there's no

MSN "religion" (yet?), to my knowledge there's no one obsessively

following MSN datacenter updates and announcing index updates in

real time.)

This is all off the top of my head, obviously. I still don't trust

the MSN organic-search results, BTW -- they've gotten more relevant

in recent months, but I'm not convinced their algorithm is totally

out of beta -- which, of course, makes adCenter PPC more relevant.

Best wishes,

Don Baker

NSI Partners

------- new post - new topic ------

From: Tom Anson

Subject: Scam

I'd like to thank all of the LED-ers who responded to my question

about the scam.  Tom Aman's and Sarah Hayes' responses were

particularly informative, and the website Tom cited was very

interesting.

When I received the email, I was (of course) 99.999% certain it was

a scam.  I googled the phone number and found someone else who had

received the same email asking about it.  We exchanged a few emails

and agreed that it was most likely a scam.

My main questions were due to the fact that it lacked all of the

signs I have seen before of this type of scam and the fact that my

website notes that my wife and I are interested in ministry from a

Christian perspective.  That left a very small sliver of possibility

that it might be legitimate -- but not enough to act upon it.

Lest anyone was fearful for me: There is no way I would have sent

money or given away personal information.  I was never in danger of

losing more than a little of my time (and maybe pride).

And as for Kathryn Martyn's comment: Are you calling me a duck?  I

mean, that's just how I walk!!!

Tom Anson

Anson Aromatic Essentials

www.therapeutic-grade.com

------- new post - new topic ------

From: Beth Ann Earle

Subject: Learning

> Sheryl Coppenger's post... is

> (in my opinion) rude.

        - Michael Linehan, LED 2072

Diane,

Thanks for a true reality check. A newspaper interview recently

quoted Tim Russert talking about his dad telling him that it takes

as much time to be nice as it does to be rude -- and, as you pointed

out, it goes a lot easier on the old ticker!

There was a guy here in our office a few years back that I couldn't

stand and avoided as often as possible, but ... he taught me a

valuable lesson and gave me a present that I still have up in my

office: a tiny magnet (that he had received at a Rotary meeting)

with these words on it:

BE KIND --

for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle

Yours in all that is kind and LEDly,

Beth Earle

Polysort

------- new post - same topic ------

From: Steve Pronger

Subject: Learning

>... Asperger's Syndrome (and other PDD-NOS syndromes) is hugely

> on the rise, I believe there are more sufferers out there than anyone

> is aware of, and a majority of AS sufferers get VERY into computers.

        - Diane Dennis, LED 2078

I'm certainly aware of it Diane. My 14 year old daughter (2nd of 6.

Yes 6) was diagnosed with Asperger's. She once signed a birthday

card to a disabled member of a class she was in "happy birthday,

even though I hate people in wheelchairs". To her, the word "hate"

had an entirely different meaning to what you or I would understand.

She had no idea that her comment would cause offence. AS sufferers

see the world entirely differently to you or me.

You're right, AS sufferers are highly into computers. With Claire,

it's Playstation, but she was once banned from a particular game's

user forum for "inappropriate comments". As you've suggested, she

thought she was just being funny.

But having said that, I thought poor Sheryl copped way more flack

than was warranted, and I do hope she returns to this list. My

interpretation of her comment was that it referred to newbies in

general, not specifically to Salem (who I don't think is a newbie at

all) and that newbies might be better served by other forums before

coming to LED to discuss broader issues. Poor choice of words

perhaps, but that's how I read her her post, and didn't really have

a problem with it. If she's been made to feel unwelcome and

personally attacked, then that's most unfortunate.

Steve Pronger

http://www.stevepronger.com

------- new post - same topic ------

From: Vicki M. Lambert

Subject: Learning

First let me say that I am a “newbie” when it comes to building

websites etc.  In fact, I am still using Front Page and my website

reflects that. But I am not in that business.  My website is

strictly for information and show only.  However, I have been

reading this list for a couple of years or so now and I can state

that 90 percent of what I read goes over my head.  So much so, that

I rarely post responses.  However, as I said in a previous post,

every once in a while I get a good idea or thought from it that I

can use on my own website or help me navigate or understand other

websites which is why I read the list.

This morning I was confused as to what has happened with this

thread, because, in all truth, I couldn’t remember the post from

Sheryl being that offensive.  So I went back into the archives and

reread the posts to see what I missed the first time.  I reread her

response to the “learning” thread and still did not see where the

offense was.  As I just stated, I am a newbie and do not mind

calling myself that.

My husband works in my business as well but does not read the list.

So I had him read the post and he said he could see where someone

could have been offended. It is not my place to tell someone else

how they should feel or react to a post and I would never do so.  I

am just saying that IMO, I think that this is a case of it could

offend or not depending on whether or not you chose to be offended

and whether or not you were familiar with the tone of the list and

what was happening in your world on that particular day.

But one thing I must add my 2 cents on and that I feel very strongly

about, is that censorship is not needed in any form for this list.

If this is the first time in several years that I even might have

been offended by someone’s post that is pretty darn good.

I agree with this Robert, you haven’t even begun to see rude, mean

and demeaning posts on this list when compared to other ones I read.

 Most become a battle of egos and the fur really flies.  And I think

having someone believe they must resign from a list or be forever

censored by the moderator, over a small, one time incident like this

is just plain wrong. I do not like seeing a trend begin where one

person can take offense at a post and cause another poster to be

banned or feel they have to leave over one post. It would be

different if the offenses were continual or every post was offensive

or derogatory, but this was one sentence, in one post, one time.  I

don’t think the punishment fits the crime.

Vicki Lambert

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