Marketing & SEO Discussion List - LED Digest

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From: Brett Atkin

Subject: Email Ethics - Double Opt-in

I have a client that chooses to not use double opt-in for email

list. They have somewhere around 40,000 subscribers across 5-6 lists.

Their attitude about incorporating double opt-in is really starting

the bother me.  We've talked about the risks over and over again and

they don't care about the occasional spam report, CAN-SPAM

implications, the impact to our overall deliverability through

Constant Contact, possible reputation and branding impact, etc...

So, I'm interested in opinions on how to deal with this attitude.

From the search engine and the spam association point of view, could

I be hurting my business if the connection is made between their

business and mine?

Or, am I just being overly righteous?

Thanks.

Brett Atkin

http://www.brettatkin.com

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From: Barb Radisavljevic

Subject: Multiple sites

> Approximately 2 weeks after we receive their

> order we send ONE follow-up email that reminds

> the customer that the charge will appear...

        - Diane Dennis, LED 2075

We also sell through several sites -- some our own and some are book

search services. We do all credit card processing ourselves. Since

we have designed our page titles and URLs to be search engine

friendly, our company name is only being used on our newest site --

still under construction. We use Endicia for our shipping software,

and it generates an email when we print the label for each package

containing the tracking number. We have a standard selection of

add-on's for this letter, depending upon the payment method. Here's

an example:

-----------------------

This package contains xxxxx  , which you ordered from

barbsteachinghelp.com, hosted by tomfolio.com. Your credit

card was charged $0.00 by Barb's People Builders.

Thank you for your order.  Please check our other educational

materials at www.barbsbooks.com

-----------------------

This lets the customer remember what he ordered from me that's on

its way, how much the credit card was actually charged, and the

company name that will appear on the statement. It also makes sure

that he remembers where he ordered it so he can go back again. If I

have any other personal or relevant information that also needs to

be explained (such as charging less for shipping than the shopping

cart calculated ) I add it to the end.

I am also sure to tell repeat customers how much I value their

continued business. I hope this helps to distinguish my business

from the larger sites I compete with.

Barb Radiavljevic

www.barbsbooks.com -The best books for children and education

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Scott M Stolz

Subject: Multiple sites

I think one thing that is important here to distinguish is the

definition of sister sites.  If you mean sites with the same or

nearly identical content, you are likely to get banned or penalized

by the search engines.  If you are talking about sites with related

but not identical content, then it actually can help you in more

ways than one and the search engines will love you...

The key is whether or not the website is useful to the user as a

stand-alone website and whether or or not it duplicates another one

of your websites.

When designing sites, think about the users experience first.  Does

in make sense to have seperate websites?  In one example by another

reader, having different websites targetted to different markets

with different content would be something useful (i.e. if I am from

the U.K., it is nice to not have to weed through a huge

international site for U.K. specific information).  Or having

seperate websites for different types of content (i.e. an

information website with articles, an e-commerce website, a

directory of related resources, etc.) on the same subject can be

useful because it helps them find what they want (i.e. they know to

go to the article website to read an article and go to the

e-commerce website to buy).  Basically ask yourself would organizing

the websites in this way be useful and understandable to a visitor?

Remember, huge websites with a lot of content can and will do just

as well as the same content spread over many sites.  And its a lot

easier to market one website instead of 20 or 50 small ones.

I have large sites and I have many small sites.  I only create a new

site if what I am creating does not fit into one of the other sites.

All of them have done well because I focus on content, content,

content.

Instead of trying to trick the search engines with the latest

techniques, building a number of websites that are not duplicates

that focus on content will give you much better results in the long

term.

Multiple sites are good, as long as they are not duplicate content.

Scott M. Stolz

http://www.wistex.com/

------- new post - same topic -------

From: Boris Poljuha

Subject: Multiple sites

> The multiple site approach is certainly

> not very friendly for the user. It clogs

> search results with annoying duplications.

        - Tom Aman, LED 2079

Well, just to express one more opinion, I also sort of hate when I

search for something, and multiple results appear, coming from one

same company.

But am I really just a user here, or rather an "educated user"? I am

a webdesigner and I am not sure that I can put down the webdesigners

glasses when I'm just searching, when I'm just a user. So, when I

hate those multiple results, is it a designer talking or a user?

Another point - everybody hates commercials, yet they are present in

more than a multiple number and form, regardless of whether we asked

for them or not. In spite, they do work! And there's a lot of money

pouring into advertising business.

And yet another point - when I test searchability of my own site -

mmxdesign.com - I also get multiple results, even though I don't run

sister-sites, just one main site with a few sub-sections, and they

all (or at least the relevant ones) appear in results.

To summarize - more results are more likely to get more hits, than

just one (surrounded by many, many others); must have something to

do with the repetition, branding principles, subconcious impression,

what not...

Boris Poljuha, Webdesigner

http://www.mmxdesign.com

------- new post - new topic -------

From: Lee Roberts

Subject: Site maps

Site maps are great tools often mis-used.

Site maps are and should be considered first and foremost as a map

to the areas that will help your clients find the information they

seek faster.  Site maps are not for search engines as promoted by

search engine optimization experts attempting to increase the page

rank values of internal pages.  Site maps are not for listing every

single page within a Web site in an effort to get your pages indexed

in the inadequately programmed search engines.

As we've seen in the past several posts, people use them to find

information they otherwise can't because Web designers fail to

consider proper Web site architecture and navigation.  Even with

developing a proper architecture and navigation system there will be

people who use the site map to get to where they want faster.  As

previously pointed out (sorry I don't recall who pointed it out),

using a good log analyzer and studying the visits to and navigations

from the site map can help you improve your Web site considerably.

I have no desire to debate with search engine optimization _experts_.

Site maps with hundreds of links or multiple site maps wouldn't help

in any way.  What many people forget is they should be reviewing the

raw logs to determine which pages the search engines have visited

and then realize that the search engines visit all pages, yet do not

always put ALL pages in their visible index.  Many reasons exist as

to why a search engine doesn't show all Web pages they have visited

.. some are simply still in the queue for processing and can stay

there for months.

An example of a well-formatted site map with thousands of Web pages

would be WebMD which Shari Thurow points out she's the SEO expert

for that company.  Even with all the pages within the site, this

site map uses logical sections to present links to some of the major

pages.  Not hundreds or thousands of links to each and every page of

the Web site.

Shari did imply that she focuses upon user-friendly before search

engines.  However, many search engine optimization _experts_ tend to

focus upon one thing only; that being search engines above users.

Just remember search engines don't buy ... people buy.

Sincerely,

Lee Roberts

http://www.applepiecart.com

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From: Claudiu Spulber

Subject: MSN

> ... it's when things get slow that I start to look

> for the reason why... and it seems that it was

> around December 26th or 27th that I stopped

> getting any significant visitors from MSN.

        - Nancy Schettler, LED 2078

Nancy, I must say that "I feel your pain". I wrote a while ago that

our website, http://www.novapdf.com was in the Google sandbox

(barely any visitors) but on the MSN we were on the first position

for our major keywords.

Now things changed since we are out of the sandbox but been kicked

of the MSN listings and I don't have any clue why. After the 20th of

December (I looked in the logs) we didn't receive any visitor from

MSN, when before that date we had at least 20 per day. So definitely

they changed something around that date, since our cases are very

similar.

For instance, if you do a search on MSN for links spidered by the

robot, http://snipurl.com/lu8n  [search.msn.com], you'll see that

you only have your home page listed, when normally there should be

more (all the pages from your website that were indexed).

The same thing for our website, if I do a search for

site:http://www.novapdf.com our main page is not even displayed,

instead 3 PDF files from our site.

What I did is that I contacted them and all I got in return was

standard "how to submit" emails or suggestions to get a SEO company.

I'm sure that they've changed something in their system and it seems

that we were seriously affected by this. Also, for our other

website, I seem to have the impression that the MSN bot is less

active as it used to be.

So, I get the impression that all we can do is wait until the next

update.

Regards,

Claudiu Spulber

http://www.backup4all.com//

------- new post - same topic ------

From: Nancy Schettler

Subject: MSN

> ... my first question was whether you'd been getting

> MSN-referred visitors via the Yahoo Search Marketing

> (YSM, formerly Overture) pay-per-click network.

        - Donald Baker, LED 2079

Don,

Thank you for your post!

I haven't done any paid advertising at all for either of my sites...

so it can't be any PPC or ad issues that are responsible. It is

curious that it happened right after Christmas, and our hits from

Google and Yahoo have continued pretty much unchanged. So I'm still

totally in the dark!

It would seem that only the home (index) pages are in MSN. I do have

sitemaps, most of the interior pages (the ones which generate sales)

are only two links away from the index page, via the sitemap.

Nancy Schettler

A Well Dressed Kitchen

www.awelldressedkitchen.com

------- new post - new topic ------

From: Bev Hanna

Subject: Learning (regarding Aspergers Syndrome)

>... Asperger's Syndrome (and other PDD-NOS syndromes)

> is hugely on the rise, I believe there are more sufferers out

> there than anyone is aware of, and a majority of AS sufferers

> get VERY into computers.

        - Diane Dennis, LED 2078

I'd like to reply to Diane Dennis's post about Aspergers Syndrome

sufferers.

In 1997, I started a list for artists who had an interest in dogs.

Albeit small, it was quite successful, and we all got along

famously, with a weekly IRC chat to exchange ideas, techniques and

anecdotes about our dogs.

Approximately, three years ago, one of the members, an Aspergers

sufferer, made some remarks which had other members very upset.

Knowing of her condition, I tried to mediate, explain and pour oil

on troubled water.  However, her behaviour was repeated several

times over some months in several different situations, resulting in

a number of  people leaving my list in anger.

In the end, rather than arbitrarily tossing her out, I handed over

the list to another moderator and left, as I was having some

personal problems and was unable to keep dealing with the stress.

From that point on, the list simply died.

Knowing of her condition and trying to allow for it resulted in the

demise of a list which had been very helpful and fun for its

members.  It was a moral dilemma for me, as I didn't want to

penalize a woman for a condition that wasn't her fault, but when I

called her on her bad behaviour, the list divided and the end result

was, we all lost.

My question is, what would have been the right thing to do in that

situation?  Hindsight (especially with the benefit of others' point

of view) is 20-20, right?

Bev Hanna

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