| LED Digest 2098: International Perspectives |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. February 16, 2006 Issue #2098 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Google AdWords / AdSense Abuse ==-- ~ Carrie MacKenzie "Adwords was the first one I dropped." ~ Ken Evoy "...their databases are stuffed with junk." --== Outsourcing ==-- ~ Andrey Chashkov "Communication is definitely the key..." ~ Tim Reynolds "Gotta kick off the loafers and wade into this one..." ~ Beth Earle "We keep all our work in the U.S...." ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Carrie MacKenzie Subject: AdWords spam > One wonders how much real revenue is being generated > by [AdWords and AdSense], and how much is nothing more > than regurgitated content... It seems that this could be a > house-of-cards that Google has not yet addressed, or won't... - Jim Berry, LED 2096 Google Adwords was the first one I dropped. Overture lasted a lot longer, but now I've stopped it as well. Last month even Looksmart was dropped. I found that for me, to be number 1, 2, or 3, meant a lot of busy work... answering letters from folks that weren't really all that interested... being 8th or 9th means that by the time they get to me, they have a better idea of what they want, and are usually more inclined to finish the purchase. Not all pay per clicks didn't work well... I also am a part of a bridal network of vendors, and pay per click there with great results. It's a highly targeted web site, and I will remain a member for a long time to come. Just my $.02 :) Carrie MacKenzie ------- new post - same topic ------ From: Ken Evoy Subject: AdWords spam > ...we've noticed a huge increase in the > number of sites that have no real content... - Jim Berry, LED 2096 From "trash sites" written by humans to "scrape-slice-and-dice" site-generators, the sheer volume of junk is terrifying. We see it because we are running our own spider to index the Net and bring back the most sophisticated measures of who is doing what on the Net yet. How bad is it? My guess, based on what we see during our spidering (reviewing random samples by eye to learn how to eliminate the truly bad from the index), is that 75% of sites are trash. Our index will ultimately provide a better estimate of competition because we have the luxury of not having to provide the "search" side of things. So we can focus on the long-term and present a non-biased statistically significant sampling of the Net. Not even Google, not even Alexa's new beta of their Web snapshots, can do that. Right now... their databases are stuffed with junk. Of course, when you do that to engines, they fight back with vigor. And I every confidence they will fight back and win, although this fight is far softer, far more amorphous, than they've ever faced. One little indicator... For years, our adsense.sitesell.com had the top spot if you looked up "adsense" at Google (after the Google sites and Google blogs themselves, of course). We did NOT optimize for it. It just happened because the content is great and there are lots of links to it, etc., etc. But now, a page from technorati has slipped ahead of us. Fair enough. Technorati is terrific. But here's what struck me. That page has an ad for... "Download Adsense Ready Web Sites Over 150 content-rich web sites" Take a look where it goes... http://www.adsenseready.com/ These folks sell stuff that others "customize." Basically, the Web is being blanketed in "customized content crap" (if these people even take the time to customize). The core drivers have reversed. Instead of monetizing a GREAT site, AdSense drives the creation of CRAP sites. The solution? Google hates to throw humans at problems. I admire them because they will take the hit while figuring out how to solve a problem for the long-term, through technology. But however they do it... They must figure a better way to score sites. They must not let bad sites into AdSense. And they must drop bad sites from their program, WITHOUT dropping good ones. Not easy. Bad people, the equivalent of con artists offline simply bang out tons of pre-written, low- value info, copying or slightly modifying open-source stuff, or buying "ready-made" stuff. But it doesn't matter if a human touches it. Trash is trash. Human visitors recognize it. And Google is learning to take it out to the curb. The tide will indeed turn. The lazy and the dishonest jump upon ANYTHING that is easy and cheap and that brings short-term money. But... Human surfers get frustrated and turned off when searches direct them to sites that offer no value and do not address their needs, do not provide the solutions they are looking for. Google, or any other SE, cannot afford their surfers to be unhappy. If you threaten the integrity of Google, do not expect them to sit still. Google tracks human satisfaction nowadays. The days of on-page relevance are long put to bed. That's just the ante now. The key? Google tracks hundreds of off-page criteria that give them a good estimate of what humans think. These canNOT be Search Engine Optimized (SEO'd)... All the best, Ken Evoy http://webmasters.sitesell.com/ ------- new post - new topic ------ From: Andrey Chashkov Subject: Outsourcing Dear LEDers, The theme started here and lately by Thomas L. Friedman [cited by Peter D'Aprix, LED 2090] is of great interest to me as a co-owner of an offshore development center. I've been in this business for more than 8 years and hope I have something to share with you. As far as I can judge from the previous posts, on average the offshore centers' reputation is not that pleasant. Language barriers, the time zone difference and inadequate quality of work are said not to be worth it at all. However, through all the posts I can clearly see the problem zone with your outsourcing experience. It lies in the fact that most of sole proprietors and small shops are outsourcing to persons, single guys sitting somewhere in nowhere. Indeed, this is a highly risky type of outsourcing and you may have the same difficulties with the local guys. There are dozens of similar stories I hear every year from our clients: "our local developer is no longer with us, the job is unfinished and we can't reach him / her. Please help." So, it's no surprise why the result of such offshore outsourcing turns wasting money and time and appears total frustration. I dare say you won't have any major problems if you're working with a company, preferably a team of 30-40 people staffed with not only programmers but with Sales, Project Managers, Customer Care Managers, Architects, and good higher managers like CTO, Chief Development and others, including CEO. So, if the business processes in an offshore company are set up to comply with the most modern requirements, if you are able to change developers and project managers in your offshore team, if you have your own account manager and directly contact with the higher manager, then your risks are zero-like. Communication is definitely the key crucial component of outsourcing. Though it is true for any other business affairs, I don't think you can expect offshore people to speak fluent native English. However, they have to be quick with response, they have to "hear" everything you said, not simply listen, they should be willing to work around time barriers to accommodate the customer, and they have to use technology to overcome distance such as Instant Messenger, Online Meetings, Shared Workspaces, etc. As you may have noted, the 30-40 people company described above has quite a good administration staff to handle and supervise development processes. And the top positions in this company should be occupied by pretty good experts. It implies years of efforts put into the company by its owners, and even in China, India or Russia (where we are from) good people deserve to earn relatively good money. That is why a really serious, solid offshore company has to charge good rates. Speaking about figures, I would say you never get a good quality service for less than $10/hour in offshore; and you will probably get average quality for $10-15/hour. Top level companies charge $15-22 an hour. In most cases, and this is how we work, this rate includes Project Management, Customer Care, and supervising by top managers personnel. These rates still give you a good margin to leave on, and they are several times lower than those of local companies. But, again, you can't expect good quality of services from people who work for food. Apparently, the main challenge in offshore outsourcing is to find a reliable and reputable company with a proven track of records. You can find them even at Elance and Guru.com - just check out their ratings, review their references and speak to their referees, see their works, talk to several people in a candidate company, and you find a good partner for your business. As a quick test question you may ask if they are willing to invite you to their office. Good companies will be happy to do it. One-man shops won't. Besides Elance and Guru, I could recommend you oDesk and eWork marketplaces as more serious sites. At eWork, they "certify" outsourcing companies by doing the above verification for you. Moreover, it costs several thousand dollars to become an eWork provider, which sets up a barrier to tirekickers. oDesk is probably a good place for small businesses as there you have direct control over single developers. oDesk provides all-in-one software to manage your virtual teams, including web cams, Skype phoning and screen capture tools so that you can see what they're doing. In any case, working with companies rather than single programmers will save you a lot of time and nerves. It would be more expensive but you pay for the quality outsourcing, certified and tested by years and hundreds of customers. Whenever it's an offshore development company, not just a few engineers working from home, it represents a real business for their owners. The owners have long-term plans, they obey the common business rules and ethics, and they do care about their reputation. Thus, working with companies you can require customer-centered and result-oriented approach from them. IMO this is a global picture of offshore outsourcing. You have a choice. Just make it right! Andrey Chashkov, VP Marketing www.hirerussians.com ------- new post - same topic ------ From: Tim Reynolds Subject: Off-shore Outsourcing Gotta kick off the loafers and wade into this one. How many of us in this industry have been hired to go in and fix or re-fresh or just burn-down and re-build a site built by a local "designer / coder" who had more enthusiasm than skill? There are bad coders and designers and marketing "experts" EVERYWHERE, maybe even across the street. It's the downside of the web that not only can we find amazing things with the click of a mouse, but we can find crap, crud and just plain garbage. But like everything else in life, we each have to take responsibility for the decisions we make and from the sounds of it, finding a good offshore outsource is as tough as finding a good coder to actually sit in the chair in the next room and do the work within yelling distance. How many of the LEDers who have had poor offshore experiences interviewed their potential offshore firm? Or asked for references and followed up on them? You do this for your employees, so why not for your sub-contractors? In my decades of dealings with friends, clients and contacts from all areas of Asia and even Africa, I find that the quality of their written and spoken English is often much higher than that of born-and-raised Anglophones. It's embarrassing. So, with regards to Offshore Outsourcing, please don't throw out an entire bushel of apples because your first one (or two) was sour. Pick through the bushel and find one that DOES work for you. Or ask your fellow LEDers for references of ones who DID impress them. This shouldn't just be a forum of intellectual discussion and dissertation, it should also be a network of support and of promoting good and solid business practices in our ever-changing industry. IMHO. Cheers, Tim Reynolds Globi Web Solutions www.globi.ca ------- new post - same topic ------ From: Beth Ann Earle Subject: Outsourcing We keep all our work (design, programming and content writing) in the U.S. (actually ... right in Ohio), because we have good people here and we're able to charge relatively reasonable rates (well, "reasonable" compared to U.S. practices, not necessarily compared to what you could pay offshore), and clients are willing to pay what we charge. But the whole outsourcing debate has been fascinating, because we've run across a number of companies who initially only want to do business with a design / content outfit that's in their neighborhood. The fact that we're in Ohio and they're not is just really off-putting for them. Once they see the quality of our work and results, they're usually willing to go with us, but there are always a few who want to stay local ... although, honestly, in today's global marketplace, you'd think the fact that we're on the same continent would be local enough. Yours in all that is good and LED'ly, Beth Earle www.pilotfishseo.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2006 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Hold yourself responsible for a higher standard than anybody expects of you. Never excuse yourself." - Henry Ward Beecher |
