| LED Digest 2103: Popular Shortcuts vs Real Results |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. February 23, 2006 Issue #2103 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Directory Pages for High Rankings? ==-- ~ Dirk Johnson "Easy tricks have no legs. Once they become pervasive, then you need a new trick." ~ David Spahr "I don't think submitting your sites twice a month is even a good idea." --== Outsourcing ==-- ~ Mark Roberts "A web designer, is not the same thing as a web developer..." --== Shopping Cart Abandonment ==-- ~ Nancy Cardinali "I just purchased 14 clothing items from an online only store..." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== US Website Maintenance Rates? ==-- ~ Noah Masterson --== Hyperlinks in the LED Archives ==-- ~ Steve Pronger <Moderator Comment> ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Dirk Johnson Subject: Directory pages > I was advised that if I create multiple D.I.P.s (Directory > Information Pages) and submit them twice per month > I could be assured of top 20 listings in most of the top > 15 search engines... This seems a little too good to > be true to me... - Chuck Hiatt, LED 2101 Chuck, great post. Having been around this business for almost 10 years now, I had never heard of "Directory Information Pages" (DIPs), so I jumped onto Google, Yahoo, and MSN to find out. There was not a single reference to this term on the first page of the search results on any of these engines. So you've brought an emerging buzz-term to our attention. The challenge is to find out what to do with it, as you've asked us to do. Since I don't really know what you are referring to, I will make some generalizations, and add that these may or may not apply to DIPs. However..... When we see that someone touts a "shortcut" to top SEO results (not you Chuck, but whoever put this forward to you), it should throw up all kinds of red flags. What is their reason for saying it? Are they selling a book, a seminar, or services based upon their shortcut? Or maybe they are just another ambitious SEO trying hard to make a name for themselves, so they concoct something and run it up the flagpole at the forums. Maybe it's a just a decoy. Until I get more info, I'd put DIPs into the "SEO fad du jour" category. There have been dozens of these fads over the years, all guaranteed to get a site to the tops of the SERPs with little work. Link farms, PR games, keyword stuffing, you name it. What happens with easy fads is that a lot of people try them. The easier it is to do, the more people that try. There are only 10 results on the first page of a search report. If 50 sites are all competing for the same term, and do the exact same thing, then 40 of them will fail to get the intended (promised?) result. At that point, the trick is useless, if it ever had any value at all. One rather well-known SEO specialist seems to have bought into one of these fads. This person was recently touting that a handful of "good" links is about all it takes to get to the top. If you buy their seminar, they'll tell you exactly how you can do it, too. Maybe their "special recipe" does work for them, and maybe it will work for others. But in looking at hundreds of situations over the years, I haven't yet seen anything like this work against well-established competitors. It's my guess that anyone with that kind of proven, repeatable traction with search engines would not be telling others how to do it for a small seminar fee (where participants would then get the info and run out and tell others on the forums, for free). Instead, wouldn't they be spending all their time putting up a lot of sites and getting very, very wealthy on the traffic, while completely avoiding any public disclosure? The revenue from a few seminar attendees is a pittance compared with the revenue available from being able to put up sites that go directly to the tops of the SERPs for any highly-competitive term they choose to attack. If I could do what they seem to claim, then I'd build sites that quickly rank #1 for "real estate", "travel", "mortgage", "insurance", "brittany speers", and a few others, and then I'd go play golf at a real nice country club. So tell me...why would they tell the rest of us how they did it? Or are they just selling some kind of digital hope? Who knows, but it is very curious and it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Easy tricks have no legs. Once they become pervasive, then you need a new trick. If it is based on fakery, then it risks penalties. A lot of people have followed these tricks right into the depths of the search results, once the fix comes in at the engines. The engineers read the forums, too, looking for popular shortcuts. I prefer to let this volatile stuff boil off. It all has a half-life. What's left are the basics that have worked for years, and continue to work. The problem is that putting up a site that covers the basics well is a lot of work, and it takes time. That's what drives people to chase shortcuts. Does any of this apply to "Directory Information Pages"? I have no idea. We all have to distill what's being said, determine a strategy, and then pursue the tactics that will get us there. That's what makes the world go round. Some people make the right choices, and for others, it does not work out as planned. From what I see, and for what it's worth, it's the basics that continue to pay stable long-term dividends, but there are no guarantees. Until I see solid and pervasive proof otherwise, that's the road I am on. Best regards, Dirk Johnson, Partner - Operations DomainDrivers LLC www.domaindrivers.com djohnson, domaindrivers.com ------- new post - same topic ------ From: David Spahr Subject: Directory Pages for High Rankings? > I was advised that if I create multiple DIPs > and submit them twice per month to all search > engines that I could be assured of top 20 listings... - Chuck Hiatt, LED 2101 I don't think submitting your sites twice a month is necessary or even a good idea. Some smaller specialized search sites and DMOZ may be worth submitting to once but Google, Yahoo, and MSN will find you without submitting and probably index them in a way that has nothing to do with how often you submit. Most bigger searches all share information and get their info that way. A lot of time spent submitting to them is probably time wasted. See Bruce Clay's Search Engine Relationship Chart at http://www.bruceclay.com/searchenginerelationshipchart.htm I think this may be out of date but it certainly gives you the idea. David Spahr Stereoviews.Com Antique-Photography.com ------- new post - new topic ------ From: Mark Roberts Subject: Outsourcing Excellent post by Rick Gortatowsky [LED 2101]. Well done Rick. I totally agree with everything said. I think every one should probably save this and re-read it at least once a week. The concepts apply to more that just computing. > As to Web programming... It's only now really starting > to come into play. Most web based sites are child's play. > These are not "programmers" creating webs, they are > web designers. Web designers (many of them) like to > fashion themselves as programmers... How true. I have harped on this very subject many times. A web designer, is not the same thing as a web developer is not the same thing as a graphics designer. I would be very hesitant about engaging anyone that does not understand the difference. I teach courses in Web design and other courses in Web development at our local college. They are completely different, I use different books and different techniques. This is not to say that some folks cannot cross over. In my own business I do a lot of web design and get sign offs from clients before I ever switch hats and do any web development... and call in my son when graphics design is needed. > This is another one of those debates that is just rather > difficult to throw pointed remarks at. Some will say outsourced > programmers are bad, some are good, just like any > profession. It really depends on how we define the > guidelines. In programming there are just so many > disciplines of it now that guidelines really do get difficult > to define... This is why, when I engage with a new client, I will completely outline what I "understand" they want with narratives and mocked up screen shots. This makes sure I understand what they are asking for and they understand what I am going to provide for them. We usually have to bounce this scope document back and forth several times clearing up discrepancies and both of us usually come up with several things that we mutually "forgot" about. This approach has worked quite well for me over the years... and I might add, for my clients as well. It also makes it easier when the client asks for stuff that was not in the original proposal. Now in regards to outsourcing (and especially off-shoring), the problems usually come in the design phase, not in the programing due to: 1. Language barriers 2. Cultural differences 3. Expectations e.g. if you are selling window air conditioners, you are going to have to take a completely different approach if you are trying to sell them homeowners in Alaska, than you would be if you were trying to sell them to homeowners in Texas. People shop differently in the USA than they do India, Russia or even Mexico. Another example is that I have even noticed that some cultures have a tendency to use even different colors than others in web design. I have been in other countries and picked up brochures that were printed in (what I though anyway) rather odd colors that I would have never used together, but they fit right in with their culture. These are the little things that can get you in "trouble" when you off-shore without clearly defined guidelines. Work ethic can also cause conflicts, but I won't go into that. Mark Roberts Roberts Computing Systems http://www.robertscomputing.com ------- new post - new topic ------ From: Nancy Cardinali Subject: Cart abandonment I just purchased 14 clothing items from an online only store. I first visited due to a snail mail catalogue. I added to my shopping cart, then had to leave. (It's that silly 'work' thing!) When I returned to the site, everything was still in my basket! And I had not 'logged on' or registered in any way. I was impressed and continued to shop. This site really has some problems (www.roamans.com) -- the pages take waaaay too long to load and when you use the 'put your catalogue number here' box, it makes you add the catalogue issue number as well - EVERY time you put in an item number! Big bummer. Again, I liked what they had, so I trudged on. I went in and out of this site for several weeks due to my time constraints and the slow speed of their site. FINALLY I was ready to buy. When I viewed the shopping cart to see my total, I had an error message which was greek to me, and I design web sites. Soooo, I called their web site help number and was told there was something in my cart that was no longer available or had some other problem. I had to go through every item - that would be 14 items - (taking several steps and dealing with the slow site), to find out the LAST item was no longer in stock. Now, all that is just plain wrong! ... anyway.... Once the offending items was removed, all went smoothly. I got an offer for x% off on items similar to those in my basket, and the '25% off one item' was automatically deducted from the highest priced item, when the coupon code was inserted. Will I shop with them again? Probably. But the bottom line will be the quality of the clothes. I can always call to order. Nancy Cardinali www.haroldrmiller.com Action adventure novels from the case files of a private investigator. nancy52, cwo.com ==== BILLBOARD =================================== From: Noah Masterson Subject: Web rates > Can anyone tell me what sort of per-hour rates are the > norm in the US for website maintenance work such as > content amendments, addition / deletion of pages, images, etc? - Gurdip Singh, LED 2102 Gurdip, You'll probably get a broad range of responses here, but I think I can speak from the lower end of the spectrum. I am not a full-time web designer, but I've built websites for a handful of clients over the years. One client in particular publishes religious sermons. He has no technical knowledge of the Web, and needed a lot of help getting online, so several years ago I built his website. More recently, I converted his website to a Movable Type (www.movabletype.com) blog-style content-management system, which makes updating the site a lot easier. Although my client, with a little training, could probably maintain his website himself - he would rather I do it, in part because I also proofread his sermons as I post them. So all I do nowadays on this site is perform minor maintenance and update content whenever he has a new sermon. For this I charge $20 per hour, with a minimum 1-hour charge. It usually takes me 20 to 30 minutes per update, most of which is spent proofreading. I could probably raise my rates, and may do so in the future, but this has been a great client for three years, and he always pays in advance. I hope this helps. Noah Masterson, Publisher www.dc-baby.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Steve Pronger Subject: LED Archives > Your post to LED got you a link from the last issue, now > posted in the archive and re-crawled often due to frequent > updates and high popularity... Expect the search engines > to revisit your site this week because you posted to LED. - Mike Banks Valentine, LED 2102 Usually correct, and good advice. Unfortunately with our beloved LED, it does not appear to be the case. Adam might like to confirm or deny this, but those back issues don't appear to be spidered at all. The listing page yes, PR5 and all. But the archived issues are not your regular URL and appear to be unspiderable (bet that's not in the dictionary). The URLs on all the signatures are not hyperlinked either. If only it wasn't the case. Think of all those high PR backlinks we'd have :-) Ah well, gues we must post to LED only because we've got something to say. P.S. The signature URLs are hyperlinked, but they still sit on page which isn't indexed with the engines. At least that appears to be the case. Correct me if I'm wrong. Steve Pronger http://www.stevepronger.com <Moderator Comment> You're right in the P.S., Steve -- the URLs are all hyperlinked. Trouble is these archives (which are "automagically" produced by the LED's mailing software) are cumbersome, outdated, un-search engine-friendly and sorta ugly. But there's good news here, because (eventually) I'll be incorporating all these archives (which date back to the late '90s -- not all are currently up) into the new site where they WILL be search engine friendly. Just when that happens is anyone's guess... (just kidding... sort of). Actually I'm trying to find the time and always have it in mind; it's a really fun project that I hope will benefit everyone. -adam ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains © Copyright 1995-2006 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. "It is the clock that measures us, that silent witness that keeps our going in and our coming out and relentlessly records our every movement." - Evelyn Underhill |
