| LED Digest 2152: SEO Ranking Ethics |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" Data > Information > Knowledge > Wisdom pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest adam, led-digest.com http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. May 3, 2006 Issue no. 2152 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Google Rankings - Are They Fair? ==-- ~ Mike Banks Valentine "Ranking and fairness can be quite a convoluted discussion..." ~ Brent Duncan "...learn all of the factors involved with getting a favorable ranking..." ~ Steve Pronger "In a commercial, competitive environment what exactly is 'fair'?" --== Marketing ==-- ~ Bonnie Jo Davis "...compile this information into a series of articles and submit them around the web." ~ Tom Anson "The best answer for your website is to go ahead and change it." --== Billing Your Time ==-- ~ John Smart "...make sure that you cover all bases when planning!" ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== Country Specific Domain Extensions ===-- ~ Michael Linehan --== Throwing Down the Gauntlet - Test Site ==-- ~ Salem Kashou ~ Eva Rosenberg ~ Kris Driessen ======== CONTINUING =============================== From: Mike Banks Valentine Subject: Unfair Google > I am doing a research paper on "Google Rankings: Are They Fair?". > When I use Google "link: www.pointofsuccess.com" It shows > numerous incoming links from a website called pmq.com... - Robert Winter, LED 2151 Reverse your search Robert. Do a "site:pmq.com pointofsuccess.com" query at Google (without the quotes) and it shows you several pages with that text used in links to PointofSuccess.com. While Google only shows six links using that text on PMQ.com forum pages, there may be multiple threads shown on a single page or someone from PointofSuccess.com may have a link from their profile to that POS site from PMQ and I wouldn't find it at all odd that they post often from a site where their product is discussed so much. Pointofsuccess.com doesn't come up in the top 100 search results for "Point of Sale Software" or "POS software" - so they are hardly ranking well or benefiting much from those PMQ.com links you found. You didn't mention what search phrase you tested for in your "unfair" ranking study - but it's pretty important to your argument here. Does your "fairness" study have any connection to other POS software vendors? It seems an appropriate link from a pizza restaurant owners' discussion board to the restaurant "Point of Sale" (POS) software sold by PointofSucess.com and I found links from other restaurant discussion boards as well. Whether all of the posts are legitimate or planted by Point of Success is open to discussion - but looking for "fair" ranking is going to lead you down some odd paths. Link spamming is not at all unusual and can be abused by aggressive webmasters posting maniacally at discussion boards around the web. I've also seen link spamming in forums done by bad guys badmouthing companies because they feel they have been wronged by that company - or worse, because they are attempting to extort money from legitimate companies in order to stop the negative talk. Some forums have been built entirely for this purpose. I've been hired by a couple of companies to help their business web sites outrank negative link spamming in search results for their company names or domain names. On the other hand, I wouldn't find it at all unusual for any product to be discussed widely (and linked to) by industries it is used by. The comments I looked at briefly were positive and supportive of the POS software company. Ranking and fairness can be quite a convoluted discussion that leads you from shades of gray to serious black hat SEO by professional tricksters out to dominate a profitable search phrases. Bad guys don't play fair though and it's very easy to find them in every industry. But in this case, the PMQ - POS issue appears to be a decent software product being discussed legitimately by the industry that uses it. Mike Banks Valentine http://realityseo.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Brent Duncan Subject: Unfair Google Robert, Have you considered that the number of links might be only a single factor in a multi-dimensional and dynamic formula? You might find it useful to learn all of the factors involved with getting a favorable ranking, then analyze your subject site against those factors to determine why your subject site achieves various rankings on different search engines. You may find your subject site is optimization-rich in other areas, offsetting what you seem to be saying is a weak factor. Brent Duncan RealMarCom: Build Profitable Relationships http://www.realmarcom.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Steve Pronger Subject: Unfair Google Hi Robert, In a commercial, competitive environment what exactly is "fair"? Outsmarting your competitors isn't necessarily "unfair". It might be to them, but hey, this is business. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to ask "is it ethical?" In the case of pointofsuccess.com I would say yes. You are simply looking at a well optimised and linked site. They rank #1 for "POS restaurant software" and that is no accident. Yes, the links from pmq.com (a forum dedicated to pizza restaurant owners) do figure in those search rankings but there are many other factors at play here. And given that those PMQ links are all from the same domain and contain no anchor text they probably do not contribute all that much to the rankings, at least in regard to sheer numbers. I had a little trouble finding the URLs on some of those link pages as well, but I did find this one in Google's cache: http://snipurl.com/pynn [Google cache] If you read the post you'll see it's a personal recommendation for pointofsuccess.com from a restaurant owner. Nothing unethical about that. Most people get links from forum posts by including their URL in their signature. Nothing unethical about that either, as long as it's done in an appropriate manner. But in this case pointofsuccess.com earned a link by simply by having a good product and a satisfied customer. Thus ensued a long discussion from other restaurant owners and the links grew. There's a lesson there for all of us. Rather than a "poor quality link" as you're suggested, it is in fact just the opposite. > Can one of the "SEO gurus", please explain how this > is happening? I tried contacting Google but got nowhere. - Robert Winter, LED 2151 If Google had to answer every question on "why does this website rank well but mine doesn't?"... well, it's just not practical is it. They just don't have the resources to answer that question for you or the gazillion other webmasters who want to know the same thing. Steve Pronger http://www.stevepronger.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Bonnie Jo Davis Subject: Marketing > We have been reluctant to change because our > site has been quite successful. It requires scrolling > and has all of the negatives that a site can have, > but our business model is solid... Over the years > we tried a variety of marketing services, none of > whom provided any help. - Ben Sudduth, LED 2150 Ben, You do have a great deal of good information on your site [www.naturear.com]. Have you tried to compile this information into a series of articles and submit them around the web? Many people do this inexpensively and find it works great. With the aging baby boomers there must be a great deal of sites that would print information about deafness and hearing aids. Bonnie Jo Davis Davis Virtual Assistance http://www.davisvirtualassistance.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Tom Anson Subject: Marketing Hi Ben, The best answer for your website is to go ahead and change it. Turning it into a well-designed website, with optimized copy, will not harm any of the "completeness" or "amount of material" on the site; it would, in fact, enhance those qualities, and make it all much more accessible, as well. If you make this site as good as it can be -- instead of keeping it as is because it is so "successful" -- you can take advantage of natural search (instead of just PPC), and you can work on acquiring links from compatible websites. If PPC is eating up most of your profits, I would have to question how "successful" your site has been, as well. If PPC is the only way people are coming to your site, something is wrong. And with what hearing aids cost, if you can't make a profit because of PPC costs, you're bidding way over your limit. With an optimized website, people should be able to find you in "organic" search. Make sure you have your store location on the site so people can find you in local search, as well. You might also want to get a Yahoo! Yellow Pages listing. I've found that it helps my other search engine results. Of course, there are off-line marketing options, too. Just be sure to put your URL in the ad(s). Tom Anson Anson Aromatic Essentials http://www.therapeutic-grade.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: John Smart Subject: Time and billing > After a recent bad experience... I am more inclined > to go for billing by the hour - not for everyone but > for clients who seem like they might turn out this way! - Veronica Yuill, LED 2149 Veronica (as usual) makes some very good points. We give a quote, and stick to it - and that can cost us - make sure that you cover all bases when planning! I had an ex client take me to court over work not done. He had not been specific in his requirements, and I had been way too nice (You want it to do WHAT? Ok, I can do that). Anyway, he was upset, and whilst the court saw clearly that I had done no wrong - I had done wrong. In failing to communicate clearly with a client, I lost his custom, his trust, and bad news travels 100 times faster and further than good news. I am now much more exacting with clients and write out EXACTLY what I am doing for them. This easily adds an hour to the quote time, but it pays dividends in the fact that we all know where we stand. As for the 5 minute update, well, if we host the client, we throw a few of those in. It is only 5 minutes (but they do add up!) and it keeps the monthly income coming in! We have a new tool that we are launching to rave reviews (Sorry - I have been reading books on publicizing! I will try to bite my tongue!!). It simply takes a well designed site, and converts it to a template site - giving the client the cool look that they paid for, and the ability to handle those 5 minute updates themselves. They can change page content - titles, meta tags and more! It is a neat gadget. I know it isn't ground-breaking, there are others out there - so you may want to look into a solution like that. Then for an extra monthly fee, they have the freedom to update to their hearts content! John Smart, Technical Director InternetDesign.com - A Human Touch in a Digital World ==== BILLBOARD =================================== From: Michael Linehan Subject: Domain extensions > Can anyone tell me if I would be better off > using "widgits-france.com" rather than > "widgits.tv"... would the .tv have a negative > influence on country relevance? - Ian Faulkner, LED 2151 People's expectation is run together as one word plus .com. If that is at all possible, that is what I'd recommend, in spite of our own name. So it's a bit of a judgement call. Imagine the phone call or the networking conversation... "That's widgits.tv." "What?" ".tv" "Ummm?" "You know. Instead of .com, .tv. There are many extensions." "Oh. So .tv instead of .com?" "Yes. That's it." ---- Not exactly how I want to make a first impression. But the question isn't just about .com or .tv. If you want to be country relevant, you're best with widgits-france.com.fr, plus translating your site into French. Many countries show much higher usage of their various local search engines that even the country-specific branch of Google, Yahoo, etc. To turn up in many of those at all, you need the country extension. For others, ranking is raised by having the country extension. And many people (for example, in Europe) who do speak English prefer to search in their own language. Many layers to deal with if you want a real presence in those various countries. Just having widgits-france.com won't do it. Michael Linehan Marketing Alchemy www.marketing-alchemy.com -------- new post - new topic -------- From: Salem Kashou Subject: Test site > I propose that we put our money where are mouths are, set > up a fictional web site, get it listed on Google, then make changes > and see how they affect the positioning. A Google-lab test. - John Smart, LED 2151 I will contribute time and money. My first step as a self-declared member would be to vote Mr. Smart as Project Manager. The site could be named something like: BusinessPlanTestSite.com. The "test site" itself would serve two purposes. The content of the test site would be the project business plan (for us to follow, assign tasks and results, etc) and it serves as the test site. Does anybody like this idea? Is the explanation clear? Salem Kashou http://www.portioncontrol.com -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Eva Rosenberg Subject: Test site This sounds like total fun! Count me in. How can I help. And how about, as a theme, Snipe Hunting? Best wishes Eva Rosenberg, EA Your TaxMama and author Small Business Taxes Made Easy http://www.taxmama.com/AskTaxMama/book/ -------- new post - same topic -------- From: Kris Driessen Subject: Test Site Count me in! I will contribute graphics, articles, links from different websites, etc. Kris Driessen Quiltbug.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains © Copyright 1995-2006 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. "Success seems to be largely a matter of hanging on after others have let go." - William Feather |
