Marketing & SEO Discussion List - LED Digest

I am having a hard time learning in this environment. Too many ideas and opinions expressed here are leaving me feeling paralyzed. If we don't reach consensus, it's all babble...

How can we refocus and consolidate all the good points so that we can quickly determine how to proceed with certain web development strategies? I'd hate to be a beginner using this forum... sorting through (sometime way too long) each point and reconciling strong ideas and trashing the weak ideas. Is there anybody out there?

Salem Kashou, Marketing Manager

Written by Beth Earle
January 10, 2006

Sorry, Salem, but there really isn't any consensus, which is one of the really cool, albeit frustrating, things about the web. While there are some obvious no-nos, there's also a relatively wide swath of what's right, depending on the goals, tastes and concerns of the site owner and site visitors.

You need to read everything that's out there and decide what's right for your client, based on that client's needs and wants. Don't think of it as paralyzing ... think of it as freeing. You've got the skills and the intellect -- and the opportunity to select what should work best. It really is a pretty cool concept.

With warm regards for the New Year to you and all the LED'ers,

Beth Earle

Polysort LLC

"Too many ideas and opinions expressed here are leaving me feeling paralyzed. If we don't reach consensus, it's all babble..." - Salem Kashou

I disagree.  No one technique will suit all of us, and we're not a standards committee.  Take what seems to fit your needs, and leave the rest.

A forum can't be all things to all people.  Everyone has some holes in their experience and needs some simple explanation occasionally, but IMO if a beginner can't get anything out of the discussion here maybe he should find a newbie forum someplace and come back when he's "grown up" a little more professionally.

Just my $.02.

Sheryl Coppenger

Salem,

I can't resolve your frustration, but it is understandable. We are all riding on the learning curve somewhere. Your place on the curve is ahead of some and behind others.

The advice is all over the board, everyone's an expert out here. One of the reasons for that is because what works for one site does not work for another. Each business presents it's own unique profile, in terms of how they market, how they distribute product, their available capital, their established customer base, their goals, etc. This will drive the choice of tools and tactics used on the site. A blog may work great for one site and be a waste of time for another. Same with email newsletters. Same with Pay Per Click ads. On and on.

You need to go through a distilling process.  Read everything, and consider it, compare it, and develop an approach that works for your own circumstances. Watch what others in your industry do on their sites (good and bad). Most of all, you need to look at it from a return on investment perspective. And yet you also need creativity. Lots of creativity, and willingness to experiment. I think that the best advisors are the ones with their feet firmly on the ground, with some real profit and loss  experience under their belt. Is a cool Flash movie going to work the best, or investing that same money in a larger recipe base? I don't know the answer, but I can guess, based on my own experience. Flash movies and other whiz-bang has a place, but is it right for your site?

Salem, you have exposed a good topic here, and you seem to want some input, so I'll go out on a limb, in an effort to advance the discussion. Consider the rest of this post to be just public brainstorming. Looking at your site (kangaroobrands.com), you are trying many things, with your separate recipe site (pocketdiet.com), coupons. All good. Your least expensive method of reaching consumers is with your own product packaging. Are you leveraging this to the maximum? That is, creating pro-active promotions that drive product users to your website, getting them to register, and then engaging them in a positive way going forward? You have much of that infrastructure in place already.

I would suspect that your number one goal is to have a consumer go to the grocery store with Kangaroo pita bread already written on their shopping list. Engagement of the consumer is the number one way to get that done. A website provides tools to manage this, from a data perspective. Then, to keep them interested, you have to provide useful info.

Think of your own pocketdiet.com website in terms of the consumer, not in terms of your own business. What does a consumer want from Kangaroo? What works for them? People can see a genuine effort to help, and they respond to it. Your product has great ease of use for families on the go. Quick and easy and tasty recipes would be high on the list, I think. Weight loss success stories may also work. Your product also relies upon other ingredients, and thus, other food vendors. Cooperating with other vendors allows you to provide more interesting co-promotions and more interesting material to your customer base, in the form of easy recipes, etc. I realize that it takes a lot of groundwork to accomplish this. You also have church groups and other social organizations that need to feed a lot of people quickly and easily. That's a different aspect of engaging the consumer. Promotions and recipes can be built around this, too.

Again, think from "outside looking in" (as opposed to "outside the box"!) , as best you can, then develop tools that address the consumer's needs and wants, in a genuine way.

Finally, how are you doing with search terms related to "pita". The search volume numbers on wordtracker.com aren't huge, but they are probably not that competitive, either. It's worth a look to see if you can capture some of this highly-focused traffic.

Salem, just my two cents worth....Thanks for providing the diversion from my day to day tasks...:)

Best regards,

Dirk Johnson, Partner - Operations

Occasionally, but rarely, you will encounter total agreement on a subject.

On some subjects, such as the value of linking, there will not likely ever be a consensus and there will be some very strong opinions expressed. But with a little reading between the lines, it is not too hard to realize that these are only opinions, mostly based on purely subjective, with no hard facts to provide support. Some subjects (very few) can be supported by hard facts and the references should be available.

On other subjects (such as designing to a specific width or using Flash or frames or ???) there will often be disagreement on whether or not 'it' is good or bad. The main value to be extracted from the discussions are the pros and cons of doing such a thing. And very often it is possible to see that the "pro" side comes from one group (like designers) and the "con" side comes from another group (like surfers who don't design).

There may never be total agreement but this is not necessarily a bad thing. The discussions should let the reader, newbies included, weigh the pros and cons so they can then make their own reasonably informed decision.

Tom Aman

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Written by Don Baker
January 13, 2006

I'm getting away, a bit, from the original problem... but I wanted to share a link to an interesting short piece by Esther Dyson, in which she discusses how our perception and use of time is changing, based on automation. Here's one quote that we can all appreciate after reading Salem's lament:

Read the whole thing here: http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_5.html

Don Baker

NSI Partners

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Written by Salem Kashou
January 13, 2006

The responses posted are good examples of what I was expecting. The discussion to help "improve this forum" was ignored while the question itself was dissected. For instance, Beth said "Sorry, Salem, but there really isn't any consensus, which is one of the really cool, albeit frustrating, things about the web." Sorry, Beth, my concern was specific to this well-founded Digest only, not the universe of knowledge.

Secondly, was Sheryl "...IMO if a beginner can't get anything out of the discussion here maybe he should find a newbie forum someplace and come back when he's "grown up"..." Typical, Ad hominem and a waste of time. Is anybody out there brave enough to tackle the issue, with vision? If not, don't repsond. If the concern is moot, don't respond. If you have something that might help pull this information together, respond.

Salem Kashou

Written by Ronni Rhodes
January 16, 2006

I don't like to belabor this, but I'm not even sure I understand Salem's concern. Is he looking for a more "threaded" discussion where each post follows the same topic? Or is he looking for more "in depth" information than he's currently reading?

The nature of an e-mail based forum is to cover a varied number of topics currently of concern to the members.  Sometimes there are many responses; sometimes there are only a few. I've never seen a request for more information go unanswered on LED. (In fact, we can get verbose when we get wound up.:-))

I'm sure I can't be the only one who's not quite sure what the issue actually is.

Kind regards,

Ronni Rhodes

Ignite Your Site with Sound and Motion!

wbcimaging.com

Written by Steve Pronger
January 16, 2006

"The responses posted in 2071 were good examples of what I was expecting. The discussion to help "improve this forum" was ignored while the question itself was dissected." - Salem Kashou

Sorry we disappointed you. Could it be that most of the members of this forum don't actually think it needs improving?

I'm a little confused as to exactly what Salem is expecting. This forum (any forum?) is comprised entirely of opinions, ideas, advice and questions from its readers. Having been a reader for some time now I can tell you that there is a wealth of experience out there. Many LEDers operate successful web businesses. There will never be consensus on every issue and I for one hope that continues to be the case. Crikey, can you imagine a LED where everyone agreed on every issue? How dull!

Salem, you're a marketing manager, so how about making your own contribution to "improve this forum" by posting your own experience and advice, rather attempting to pull everyone else into line?

"Is anybody out there brave enough to tackle the issue, with vision? If not, don't respond."

Sorry, but I find myself being a little irked by that statement. Don't know how other LEDers feel, but I don't like being told to "not respond". Reminds me of the time a LEDer contacted me off-list to tell me I was WRONG and that I should not make any further posts lest someone actually take my advice. My response to him was rather, well, intense. Adam wouldn't have published it in a fit.

Salem, take from LED what you will. Make your own judgments as to the validity and usefulness of the posts. Agree or disagree. Ask questions. Add your own 2 cents. But don't tell me what I can or can not say.

Steve Pronger

stevepronger.com

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Written by Vicki Lambert
January 17, 2006

I think this topic is indicative of the U.S. specifically and maybe the world in general. Not being in touch with the whole world I realize that is a broad statement. I am always getting e-mails that tell me if I don't agree with it then just delete it but by all means don't disagree or argue with me! It seems that debate, discussion or disagreement is no longer allowed. That the free and open debate of a view point is now considered rude, stupid or insulting.

"... take from LED what you will. Make your own judgments as to the validity and usefulness of the posts. Agree or disagree. Ask questions. Add your own 2 cents. But don't tell me what I can or can not say." - Steve Pronger

I agree with this post, if you don't like how the forum is conducted then take what you can and move on. I take my own advice on this matter. I read the forum each day, but most of the time it is not to my taste, or needs or "where my head is currently at." But every once in a while I get a good tip, or a new thought or a different slant on something that helps me.

Vicki Lambert

IMHO Salem, here are some tips that may help "sift the wheat from the chaff":

- Some posters hang around newsletters constantly attempting to author profound opinions using every buzzword they've learned and are desperately waiting to be recognized as that subject's guru. Because they rarely work you can quickly spot these from the number of their posts.

- There are other posters who in their ambition to be recognized as numero uno, will disagree and fire off insulting treatises on every post whose reality is inevitable.

- ... and then there are those who are either searching for an answer or simply sharing good / bad experiences in order to help / prevent others.

Therefore, Salem just ignore the wannabes and look for the latter. Be patient, there really are some valuable gems amongst all the nonsense.

Bill Davison

bizwebpage.com

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Written by Renee Kennedy
January 17, 2006

Salem,

I may be misunderstanding you. But, I don't understand how we can "pull this information together."

We discuss many different topics on this list ranging from SEO to the most recent discussion of online Radio. They may all be lumped into the topic of "Internet Marketing," but I see companies realizing the need to hire specialists in each area.

For instance, I'm an SEO, so I am much more interested in the conversations revolving around SEO. I do read the other posts and they do broaden my knowledge - but to bring all these things together under one roof - I just don't know if that's even possible.

Do you want an overall "internet marketing" philosophy that we should all live by? Don't you think it's good to have diverse opinions? That's what makes the conversation lively. That's what makes us grow and challenges us.

Renee Kennedy

e-healthlinks.com