Marketing & SEO Discussion List - LED Digest

First I'd like to thank Mark Roberts for his insight and his kind words about my post in LED 2101. I am in virtual (lol) agreement with his statements as well as posted in LED 2103. While I do not teach programming or web design I have had my fill of being brought in after the fact to fix shall we say, "disturbed webs".

On topic offshore outsourcing of technology jobs related to the computer industry as I noted in LED 2101 is really no different than that of other forms of job outsourcing. In these threads I fail to see mention for example of the fact that the electronics that make these lil' bugger's tick is almost fully made overseas. GM corporation has plants in China that are pumping out automobiles for the Asian market at maximum capacity yet here in the US of A this is not the case.

The US economic situation is forcing businesses of scale to utilize offshore labor to stay competitive and meet the expectations of shareholders, markets and channel partners. It is important to again note that there is no solution in sight unless the USA makes a fairly radical change in the core of this nations ways. Basic needs of the people need be met in logical fashions. Health care, higher education, shelter and then some need be provisions of the society not features thereof of a society that some can afford and others not. Additionally there must be ways to not only encourage but force citizens to be productive. Other nations are rearing their youngsters towards directed careers starting at early ages and they will be productive citizens.

People reading these LED's on offshore outsourcing need to broaden their peripheral vision. Outsourcing is simply one sympton of the disease. Cures do not come by solving a sympton they come by solving the disease.

What can people in the USA do though? We all feel like we have no say, powerless. The best we hear is the next election vote for the other party. Kinda like a choice between milk or cheese but both make you sick if your lactose intolerant :) LOL.

What people in the USA need to do is perform a level of nationalism in purchasing. If you have 10 people aroung a campfire and 6 of those people are taking burning logs off as well as taking logs to put on and bringing them to other campers fires what happens? The four left scramble to find logs and keep the fire burning but never get a leg up on it. Eventually it will go out or eventually those four will go beat up some other campers and take theirs. Welcome to the new global economy and globalization :)

If 15% of expendable incomes for every US citizen were spent on actual US goods from US businesses our economy would be booming! Thats what it takes. It takes consumers thinking about purchasing. It takes perhaps some research so when I purchase my Corn Flakes I know that the money stays in our economy. Lastly it takes people sending clear messages BY purchasing to US companies, "We will not stand for your company investing heavily abroad unless said areas of investment also invest in us". That is to say we are happy business A will invest in China as long as business A sends the clear message to Chinese business that they will reciprocate and invest in us.

Globalization can work if said advantages thereof are reciprocal. Mutually beneficial relationships. This is not what's happening. Instead it is appearing more and more like we need go beat up other campers and take their logs.

Rick Gortatowsky

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Written by Joanne Glasspoole
February 24, 2006

Rick Gortatowsky's post was very interesting. I am a small business owner contemplating outsourcing to India, but I am torn, because I know in my heart it makes economic sense to keep our money here. As a small business owner, though, hiring an Indian professional for three or four times less money is an attractive option (maybe it's greed).

I understand why the corporate giants are outsourcing (saves money), but at the same time, it puts Americans (or whatever country you live in) at a competitive disadvantage.

I don't think boycotting products made in other countries is the answer. Instead, I think if we produce products that are of higher quality, spending more money as a consumer will not be an issue. The perception that Japanese made products are better than American made products is strong. If the US wants to stay competitive in the global economy, our quality control standards need to be higher.

Joanne Glasspoole

glasspoole.com

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Written by Rick Gortatowsky
February 27, 2006

> I don't think boycotting products made in other countries is the

> answer. Instead, I think if we produce products that are of higher

> quality, spending more money as a consumer will not be an issue.

    - Joanne Glasspoole

Boycotting imports is not the answer. I think perhaps you misconstrued my message. I did not mention boycott of goods or services. What I stated was that if Americans took 15% of expendable income and bought US made merchandise with those funds our economy would be booming. That in fact Americans need excercise a certain level of purchasing nationalism. Many other nations do put fairly strict limits on importation so as no singular external entities afford sizeable control over a respective nations economy. With the USA this has slipped.

While I have nothing against the firm, Walmart is a remarkable example. Most goods within Walmart are made in China and exported to the USA. This did not used to be the case when Sam Walton was CEO of Walmart. People will buy what is most affordable to buy leaving money to buy more. Thats why the USA is and has been the market to the world in consumption for decades now.

Walmart as a case example actually impacts our economies valuation, they are that big. When in our countries history have any of us ever heard that a retailer... note, not manufacturer, not distributor has considerable control and impact on our economy? K/Mart? Sears? Many others have went near belly up, others belly up and never noted as a sizeable economic impactor. If Walmart folded up tomorrow we would all feel economic impact. This is a retailer and that is significant. Said retailer used to buy goods all made in the USA. Now said retailer imports most merchandise and does not buy it but instead consigns.

How much control do they afford really. Well, DVD manufacturers, electronics manf.'s and many others live in fear of Walmart. They in fact sell so much that they have control over terms.

Again I have nothing against the company itself. I do take issue with the trade imbalance between us and trading partners. Exportation of wealth can only have one end result. This end result is not something the USA has ever witnessed on the scale it is happening at now. This end result the population will not cope with when it strikes home with no paths out.

Last election it was stated that small business is thriving in America and this is where our economic strength lay. We were displayed examples such as a tow truck firm in the mid-west. How silly! How stupid... Small and medium sized businesses have and do live in large part off the good graces of large business. Perhaps they then grow large and other businesses are able to rely on future business with them. Small and medium sized businesses did not keep America atop the world economies in history past. Corporations did and do. Small and medium sized businesses then have an opportunity to thrive both in competition with large business and by revenue in an economy generated by said large businesses. This mechanism is broken.

Corporations are instead investing in people other than those here as well as businesses overseas.

Take this business of port operations all over the news. Is it significant? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Irregardless of who owns the rights to port operations the fact is 5% of all containers entering this country are inspected. In illegally replicated and imported software alone into US markets with subsequent resale figures are upwards of a billion dollars. Where does it come from? China. Its in fact so lucrative that India is now engaging in same to Europe where India owns most port warehousing. Here in the USA, China owns most port warehousing. 5% of those huge railway containers are ever inspected.

We have outsourced port operations to England for years. Where-as this should be something that is strictly US based. For example, people would be flipping out if instead of ports it were, "A company owned by the United Arab Emirates Government has been sold the contract for Airline security". Lets see John Q. Public swallow that one. The $200 Billion dollars spent in making Iraq a democracy is enough money to have actually done considerable true homeland security.

The President is right, we are at war. However, we the public are not sure who we are at war with and why. Why? Well, take your pick:

1. Economically we are a dead duck we just do not yet feel it.

2. We are at war for resources in a world where we now need compete with China and India for them.

3. We are at a crusades point. A cultural war where lifestyle, beliefs and religion all are at risk. Or... perhaps all three.

Planes did not fly into a football stadium or more densly populated areas. What was struck was a western financial hub. The hoped for impact was severe economic disruption and damage. A few days back a oil field was attempted. Economically we know certain things. The US has severe debt crippling all of us from business to personal life. In our economy prices do not drop when there is less, they go up. If less citizens have health care insurance, health care costs will rise.

In any event... I could go on. My guess is its moot. My guess is our economy is so far gone that the "war" we are not yet truly engaged in (but will happen) will be a fight for US survival. Yes, terrorism be it called will hit home again but this will be nothing in comparison to what we "give". Real war will devastate all but the rich economically but future generations may again enjoy wealth.

If Americans want a healthy America without having to take by force others wealth then the masses of population need to take steps now. Those steps include becoming activated towards change and when spending money making absolutely certain that at least 15% of that money is spent on US made goods and US owned companies. Buying a Toyota made in Georgia still results in profit going syonara out of the country.

As to your dilema of should I or should'nt I use offshore outsourced work for your small business? Well... again, here sits a personal choice. You can keep more in your pocket by not doing so or you can watch less of your money end up leaving America by doing so but giving another nation more ability to compete with us.

I am all for competition but it helps if its fair. We live in a nation by which foreign goods copyrighted, patented still are afforded rights. Nations that are effectively gathering our wealth could care less about such things. Benefit and entitlement issues aside in nations... at the VERY least foreign governments need enforce intellectual property rights and that is just not happening.

The USA is basically in a lose, lose, lose situation and the people need realize this and get activated on it. Government in many of these aspects is powerless. Many think government is just stupid. Incorrect. China is a fine example. We could tarrif imports, we could put strict trade balance enforcement in place. But... whether the government does or does not our economy is what gets hurt the most. My guess is our economy could not take it.

China is the largest holder of US National debt. They hold the economic keys to our porsche. The government cannot come out and say to us all, "Buy USA and not Chinese etc etc"... As again, they dont have the economic keys. China may go, "Oh so thats the way its played aye?". No. The ONLY people who can rescue this economy are the people. The masses. They need to get back to basics and they need realize that they are in fact exporting their own wealth and future. They need make sure that at least 15% of what they have as expendable income is spent on US made goods and said goods owned by US made companies. If they dont it appears what we may see is currency wise in the next 20 years will be, "God Bless America - A wholly owned subsidiary of The Peoples Republic Of China".

Rick Gortatowsky

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Written by Alex Hughart
February 27, 2006

> ... when spending money [make] absolutely certain

> that at least 15% of that money is spent on US

> made goods and US owned companies.

    - Rick Gortatowsky

Oh, boy... If I only knew how to differentiate '100% US-owned companies' from '30% US-owned' companies...

It's not enough I agonize every single day in a grocery store over 'organic', 'fat-free' and 'all-natural' products. There is no way in hell I can ever know for sure what I'm getting in that can of soup - unless, I have a mini lab at home complete with a chemist on board. Same goes for any other product.

Pardon my cluelessness but, are there any other ways to solve this global issue? Maybe, like, you know, globally?

Alex Hughart

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Response to Rick Gortatowsky --

I have every sympathy with what Rick is saying. His heart obviously bleeds for his country. I am afraid that his solutions are closing the stable door after the herd of horses, cows, pigs and chickens are far gone.

We are living in a Global economy. That cannot be changed by either sticking our heads in the sand and pretending we can just carry on the way we have been for decades nor can it be changed by pulling in our activities and buying from our neighborhood manufacturers. That will increase the spiral.

What America cannot compete on is the playing field of cheap, highly trained people resources or cheap working labor. Where we can compete, and where our strengths have always been is having creative highly trained people who are inventive problem solvers. While this is not confined to mathematical fields by any means, it is engineers, programmers and the ilk that are at the forefront today.

As The World is Flat author repeats from an interview with an Intel executive "Our product is made of sand and brains; and we have plenty of sand." We in America have not been able to meet from within our shores the needed talent in the brains department. For decades we have been luring students to our Universities from other countries as well as luring them directly to jobs in the US to supply our need for expertise that we ourselves are not providing. Look at how the average age of NASA scientists has been growing upwards.

As I understand it, our government in Washington is not only not increasing the funding for American students to get this education, but are actually cutting it in real terms. Apparently it takes 16 years to take a kid in grade school and produce an effective engineer.

So if we want to stay in the forefront of the world economy, (and I agree we are slipping badly and the future does not look good as we become obese sitting in front of our big screen TVs (made where?) eating fat and sugar ladened goodies, indulging ourselves in every gadget and goody put in front of us) the hungry, motivated and very bright students in India, China, Russia and many other countries who can work on projects all linked by the global internet and are trim, slim, energetic and work like crazy to educate themselves (and they appear to be succeeding) will take our place.

In many cases, this education is their governmental strategy to push their country ahead. What we need to do as a country with leadership from Washington, is to invest in our future - education! An investment today still will not pay off for a decade or two, but the speed at which the world is changing, if we don't do it now at grade school level and above, we will be the world's door mat in not very many years to come. And then discussions about such politically charged smoke screen buttons as gay marriage and abortion will seem petty in contrast.

Meanwhile the billionaires' club is growing, the gap between rich and the middle classes not to mention the poor is growing exponentially, funds that could be used to dynamically super charge this education we so badly need are being borrowed from the Chinese to give taxes back to the top 2% of our citizens, the interest on which the other 98% have to pay. Is this really smart? Is it going to solve our country's global competitive problems in this and the next decade? As a country we need to wake up. I agree totally with Rick on that. Just differ a bit on the solution.

But this education has to be targeted to the fields where it is really needed. We really don't need more potters or photographers like myself. The very global network of optical cables and the technology to allow us to send huge quantities of information back and forth that has given us in this LED Digest our jobs, has also provided the competition from around the world for our jobs. We have to figure out what we can do better than someone who is just as capable of building a web site in Bejing or Bangalor. That's tough if all we know how to do is program a site. We have to figure out what the "Added Value" is that we provide.

Unlike a plumber or carpenter whose work cannot be outsourced to China, our jobs can and are being done anywhere in the world, for better or worse. So, like a plumber or carpenter, what do we know how to do that can only be done here in our community? Any ideas anyone?

I have a feeling it is in the"intellectual property" field such as branding, marketing, face to face sessions with clients to work out not a web site but how a web site can answer business based problems, cut down on errors, save waste, give customers to the site their own added value, etc. What a web site should be before graphics are created and before the site is ever built. In an era when everyone's nephew or grandchild can actually produce a web site, what makes ours different from theirs? I'd like to hear from other LEDers their thoughts on that.

For example, this changes the discussion a bit about cell phone friendly sites - "how to?" to - "should my client be making his site cell phone / PDA friendly?" in the first place. What is the ROI in doing so? Is it premature? Who is the audience? Are people actually going to make buying decisions on a million dollar lath by looking at a site on their cell phone? If they do view the site on their cell phone is the site viewed this way actually making the sale or just locking it in? Can it be used to tip the balance over into a sale for example by showing the product to their committee members that can lock in a sale? Provide that little extra push. Might they very well buy movie tickets on their cell phone on the way to picking up their date? Then the questions becomes OK, now how do I do it and how much is it going to cost? Is the return worth the investment? Perhaps this is where we can be of Added Value to our clients. But this takes additional education ourselves to provide. Perhaps we need to form small groups with members who can bring a greater breadth of expertise to the our clients to convince them to keep their web business here instead of off shoring it. (Can we say "off shoring"?)

I think all comes down to education, initial and continuing, if we, as a country, want to stay competitive in this millennium. We just cannot turn the clock back. Instead we have to move forward faster, better; provide more value in ways we Americans, British, Europeans can do. I say this because although my perspective is particularly American, in this arena we are really talking about all the industrial countries that have been at the forefront since the industrial revolution, not just Americans. We are in a different revolution today, but one just as profound. As rich countries, we have had the where-with-all to provide a social safety net to our citizens, some more than others. But that safety net costs money that makes our products more expensive. If we want to be competitive in the coming years, we have to examine many things that contribute to making us uncompetitive in this global economy as well as things that make us more competitive.

Peter D'Aprix

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Written by Nancy Schettler
March 1, 2006

Outsourcing / Made in USA

Yes, it is sad that for those of us in the USA that so many jobs are going overseas. It's difficult to watch my young children grow up, knowing that it's very likely that they are likely to have a much harder time earning a good income than I did when I just out of college.

I think, that while I agree with Peter [D'Aprix] that "the herd of horses, cows, pigs and chickens are far gone," that if we do what we can to at least think, while we're out shopping, about where the goods are coming from, and read the labels, and maybe make do with a little less, so that we can afford to buy something made in our own country, we can help just little bit. Educating our kids about this issue will help too. Even buying from our local farmer's markets (yes, summer will come) helps to save fuel, as transportation costs are lessened, and we really will be supporting our neighbors.

Personally, I find that what troubles me the most is that growing gap between rich and poor. I think this gap threatens us (especially business owners), because we are the ones who often carry an extra share of paying for the social services programs to help those who have little. Here in New York State, this is especially true. My own philosophy as a business owner is to be sure that I am paying my workers a decent wage that they can live on. If I can't do that, then there is something fundamentally wrong with my business.

It's a moral issue too. If those that work for me can't get by on what they earn, but I have money to spare, then isn't that greed on my part? And isn't it a more efficient use of the money, to be directing it straight to the worker, than to let it filter down to them through various layers of bureaucracy, shrinking as it goes?

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Nancy Schettler

A Well Dressed Kitchen

(a made-in-America business)

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For Rick Gortatowsky, Peter D'Aprix, Nancy Schettler, and other LEDers interested in this subject.

This LED thread has been enlightening. I thrill when I see sane, well thought-out responses to a political problem. As business people, we must operate within the existing political climate or not operate at all.

In addition to presenting views here, and encouraging LEDers to have a look at certain possible solutions, let's also write a letter to the President of the United States of America. It might or might not be read. But if it is not sent, it most certainly will not be read.

Mari and I built TellThePresident.US a few weeks ago for the purpose of encouraging folks to write. There are no ads and we make no money from it. Some people do give us permission to publish their message, most of which we make available on a separate page, soon to span multiple pages. In essence, the web site takes the input from a form and formats a letter ready to print and mail.

Question, for answering here or privately (contact link at the site): We've thought about providing a service of also mailing the letters. The price would be pretty much at cost. Do you think offering such a service would make the site seem like a commercial enterprise?

The web site is our way of encouraging communication with the highest political power of the USA. Please take advantage of any opportunity you have to encourage your contacts to write a letter to the office. Whether or not the letters themselves do any good, the feeling of being involved, even in a small way, might help to alleviate the general malaise I'm sensing as we RV around different parts of this country of ours.

I know, a letter could be composed and printed with a word processor. But will you?

Will Bontrager

> Personally, I find that what troubles me the most

> is that growing gap between rich and poor.

    - Nancy Schettler

Nancy, you are absolutely right. The gap between rich and poor is one of the biggest problems in today's world and on all levels: within as well as between countries. Personal involvement, no matter how small, is a great thing and we've seen throughout history how one person can change the world. The question is what is it that we want to change and how.

This particular issue is so complex and it can be viewed from so many angles. After all, we live on a speck of cosmic dust called Earth and it will only behoove us to consider all people on this planet to be our neighbors. I am not saying this as some wide-eyed hippy-dippy nor am I some big corporate CEO who likes to call her greed "globalization". Economic crisis and shifts are happening since the first exchange of goods happened.

If you guys have time and will, read about the Great Depression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression. It is fascinating (and humbling) to see how delicate economic and political balance truly is on a global level. Historians and economists are still debating the causes of the Great Depression but they all agree that Smooth-Hawley Tariff Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act if not caused it, deeply worsened it by reducing international trade and causing a tariff war to erupt.

I believe that a vast majority of people anywhere on the planet will prefer to live peacefully and be able to work and feed their families with what they earn. By eradicating poverty and ignorance anywhere in the world, our collective future will look brighter. If nothing else, we should look beyond our borders for a very selfish reason: more jobs and books, less time and desire to burn flags and plot terrorist attacks. Then, we'll be left to deal with remaining thrill-seekers and sociopaths and there are enough of those to keep any concerned citizen busy.

Of course, I might be totally wrong in my opinion but, who cares, it's just an opinion posted on some web forum.

Alex Hughart

Real-World Example: This week, I needed someone to install SugarCRM on a SUN Solaris 10 box. I am a Microsoft guy, and have very limited UNIX skills and no SUN skills at all so I needed a solution and needed it FAST and CHEAP.

For the past week, I've been soliciting quotations to do the installation and have received quotations from Russian and American IT specialists ranging from 2 to 5 days at $500 to $1,750 to do the install. I considered this unreasonable -- especially since the software is Open Source and a fairly straight forward installation.

Instead, I used http://www.bangaloreit.co.uk/ -- an Indian company whom I have used before and who's work I can highly recommend -- they quoted $10 per hour and 3 hours of work -- the system was installed on a live server (with other mission-critical applications) is RUNNING PERFECTLY today and I can get on with other tasks.

When the work was performed to my satisfaction, I paid by PayPal (took about 30 seconds), and the case was closed. Totally hassle-free. CUSTOMER DELIGHTED!

Some may consider it "corporate greed" to send work offshore and save money. I call it a common sense way to solve a problem and delight the customer. Businesses can only STAY in business by using their heads, shopping around, and getting the best value for money. Some employees don't understand that if the business pays too much for products or services -- the business will fail and there will be NO job for them. There is nothing 'greedy' about treating the corporation's money as carefully as you treat your own by shopping around in order to stay in business.

The key to survive in the global economy -- be SMART, be COMPETITIVE and ADD VALUE!

Marty R. Milette

ambh.com

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Written by Alex Hughart
March 3, 2006

> Some may consider it "corporate greed" to send work

> offshore and save money. I call it a common sense

> way to solve a problem and delight the customer.

    - Marty Milette

Marty,

Just briefly, a little clarification, not to bore other LEDers anymore. $10 an hour for you to pay and for a developer in India to earn is certainly a 'win-win' situation. This is how globalization should ideally work, with competence and added value as the only determining factors and that's smart business.

Paying workers in some dumpy sweatshop $10 per month, making them work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week and using child labor can be called by all means 'corporate greed',  if not immoral and criminal. Companies who exploit people like that, whether they do it directly (offshore) or by pretending that they don't know about it (onshore) are the 'greedy' ones mentioned in my post (I don't know if that's the case in other posts).

Alex Hughart

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Written by John Smart
March 6, 2006

This is definitely something that works for some not others. We advertise the fact that we are American owned, run and staffed - our clients seem to like that. I won't be leasing another Dell after this one expires because the financial team is in India.

Before I get flamed for racism my objections are with Dell's Management of off-shore staff. Every problem I have takes forever to resolve. Resolutions are promised and not forthcoming - and I end up talking to someone whom I cannot understand (I grew up in an area heavily populated with Indians, plus my ear can understand a thick Scottish accent. I feel that it is not unreasonable for me to expect an American company to be able to communicate with me in this countries chosen language).

The way Marty [Milette] writes out his situation, he is clearly doing what is best for him and his company. Who are we to question that? Is he unpatriotic? No - he is keeping his business in profit, allowing him to pay more taxes and potentially employ more stateside staff. Would we have done the same thing? It would depend on many factors, some of us would, some would not.  In the exact same situation I may have done the same thing. After all, each time our manufacturing company is approached by a spammer, I have to really consider it. No, I don't want to be a spammer - but do I want the volume of sales they are promising me?

John Smart, Technical Director

InternetDesign.com

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Written by Marty R. Milette
March 6, 2006

Alex [Hughart] is 100% right on the money when he states,

> Paying workers in some dumpy sweatshop $10 per month, making

> them work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week and using child labor can

> be called by all means 'corporate greed', if not immoral and

> criminal.

I don't think there can be ANY argument that SOME forms of offshore outsourcing ARE little more than criminal greed -- but we must remember that this is typically the case with manufacturing of consumer goods rather than 'knowledge-work'.

Bangalore seems to be the "Silicon Valley" of India -- where life is VERY VERY GOOD for the majority of people AND the costs of living are so low that the $10 or $20 per hour you pay them can provide the same lifestyle (or even better) than the $80 to $100 per hour you'd need to pay a Southern California worker for the same work.

Knowledge workers in India have no shortage of excellent jobs to look forward to -- their most challenging problem seems to be selecting which employer they want to work for. I can tell you that NONE of the companies or workers I have used is any kind of 'sweatshop' -- in fact, this is sometimes a problem when I need people to work weekends or after hours.

In the 'good old days' of offshore outsourcing, foreign developers were 'hungry' enough to to work extended hours for very little -- but times change and prices have doubled or tripled and workers are becoming much more demanding of their free time. (This is a GOOD thing -- right?)

We shouldn't knock Indians or other foreign countries whose governments recognized the potential of their workforce more than 20 years ago, and started DOING what it takes to 'tool-up' their future workforce. (Something many other countries failed miserably to duplicate.)

Check out the Bangalore University -- and have a look at some of the others. Graduates of these universities ain't working for $10 per month in any kind of sweatshop you can be sure.

Interestingly enough, several years back I did a training course for an American company in Albany, New York... The class had to be held on weekends and evenings so that the students didn't lose one second of 'billable time'. Lunch (provided by the company) was plain Pizza (cheese only) and sodas - barely enough to go around.

Guess who the students were? 20 Indian developers brought to the USA on H1-B visas. The US company would work them for up to 2 years at minimum wage, pull their support, send them home and replace them with new ones. I'm sure this company's customers thought they were "Buying American" too...

Marty R. Milette