| LED Digest 1958: The Blessing and Boon of Popular Forums |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. April 19, 2005 Issue #1958 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Are Site Forums Worthwhile? ==-- ~ Mekhong Kurt "In short, yes, forums have a valued place in 2005," ~ Rick Gortatowsky "Active forums that recieve substantial traffic can be a blessing and boon." --== Beware of Internet-centricity ==-- ~ Mike Banks Valentine "I can't believe that anyone still believes that businesses don't need web sites." ~ Sheryl Coppenger "I look at web designers like I do plumbers... They're trades that require a body of knowledge..." --== Spidering iFrame Content? ==-- ~ Bob Gladstein "...a problem [can exist] even if the content that's populating the iFrame is on your site..." ~ Shari Thurow "Search engines treat iframe content no different than they treat regular framed content..." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== Getting Desired Traffic ==-- ~ John Smart ===== CONTINUING ================================= From: Mekhong Kurt Subject: Forums In LED 1955, Richard Craham concludes his plaintive post "Forums -- worthwhile or not?" with a serious and quite legitimate question: "In 2005 is it worth it having a forum on your site?" Earlier in his post Richard mentioned some of the reasons he was questioning the value of a forum on one's web site. Indeed, those reasons -- concerns -- are inarguably valid. Yet consider the alternative of being silenced, in effect, by those concerns. It's easy to say we will support the other guy in his right to free speech; it's a rather different kettle of fish to stand our ground in the face of accusations of spamming, censorship and the like. Richard: stand your ground, if you choose to do so. With fair regularity I get taken to task for something or the other I have on my web site, but given that it is not only a non-profit but a non-money-generating site, I take a rather in-your-face attitude: "Hey, I do this at absolutely no charge. If you don't like it, that's certainly your right; just don't bother to READ it if you don't like it, considering the price. And certainly don't waste your time complaining to me about it." In short, yes, forums have a valued place in 2005, IMHO. Mekhong Kurt, Bangkok, Thailand ------- new post - same topic -------- From: Rick Gortatowsky Subject: Forums Dear LED, While I have not posted in a while I found the thread on forums rather interesting in the opposing views. Here's our two cents. Active forums that recieve substantial traffic can be a blessing and boon. The traffic retention is always a nice thing given what a sites goals are. The work however can be just infuriating as for whatever the reason the freedom of the Internet also brings out the worst in personality in people. If a site puts up a forum for whatall, game discussion, religion, politics all forms of human species who have injested garbage for much of their lives come to the surface to belch on everyone else because... they can. If however forums are highly directed they can be a very useful, helpful and even money making tool. Support forums for software engineering, how to train a dog, how to fix the car and many more are very beneficial resources. Seldom if ever have I saw the "GutterNet" appear on any of these highly directed sources. However, go to a site for gaming and its amazing. Adults acting worse than children. Many of these home-run ventures are even at war with other sites of similar interests. They do not count money as success. They count heads yet want make money. Its funny. Hey I made a rhyme! I have often wondered how they can in any way shape or forum (giggle) live with themselves or for that matter think its worthwhile given aggrevation and work. I went to a software industry conference years back where one of these "self-proclaimed bastions of the software entertainment industry" decided to appear. The nut was running around to various publisher people like he could make or break products and like he had ANY clue what so ever of what true engineering really even is. But he was versed enough at spouting baloney to get attention and then behind closed doors when "businesses got down to business" was completely made mockery of. A tiny bit of research resulted in finding that his "site" run from his home was nothing but a character with an addiction to games and all of a $37,000 house in Pittsburg. $37 g's in Pittsburg gets you a dump. So... forums when used for directed means can be very very useful. When used in ways that will attract strange people and thus problems usually means that whomever is running them has similar matters. Many in reality are not at all different than IRC or Chat Rooms. Complete idiocracy... On the positive note perhaps someday people will actually be responsible for content of webs, users responsible for activities and the web will be able to mature. As it goes now... The great commerce, communications and interactive web that in the late 80's and 90's was said to be the next big step in globalization and benefits for all has turned into nearly the exact opposite. A murder of cultures, a pox on personal secuity / safety... a global culture with no ruleset or morality and at least in the case of America quite likely to result in significant loss of freedom. Rick Gortatowsky -------- new post - new topic --------- From: Mike Banks Valentine Subject: Internet-centricity > Out there in the Real World, there are still a lot of > businesses that aren't on the Internet, and, truth > be told, they don't have to be. - Martha Retallick, LED 1955 I am always surprised when this discussion pops up again and again on different forums, but it was this very LED list (probably about 5 years ago) where I first became incensed at the attitude that any business didn't NEED a web site. I will always maintain that every business must see a web site as a tool comparable to the phone and get one. Way back when I first jumped into this discussion back then - I wrote an article titled "Your Small Business MUST be Online!" and posted it to my site at: http://website101.com/youmust.html Every year since then, I've seen this discussion about internet-centricity pop up over and over again. The second time I saw it, I wrote another article titled "You MUST Expand to the Web!" and added it to that page. Then over time I saw others contributing similar articles and added those to that same page. I can't believe that anyone still believes that businesses don't need web sites. I AM glad to see that it appears to be applied to businesses that are so tiny they don't have phones either. The yard man could still benefit from a web site, but not until he expands beyond the few yards in that single neighborhood and gets a telephone. Mike Banks Valentine Ethical Search Engine Optimization Specialist http://www.seoptimism.com/SEO_Contact.htm ------- new post - same topic -------- From: Sheryl Coppenger Subject: Internet-centricity Bill Davison wrote: .. A whole lot of negative things about web designers which also could have been written about any other business. > Some clients... need constant maintenance. The greedy > designer immediately visualizes beeg bucks for customized > huge databases. Well guess what? (a) they don't really need it... Well, if they don't really need it and can't afford it, why are they asking for it? > Maintenance fees for such clients should be priced not > "what the market will bear"... but affordable. So the web designer, unlike any other businessperson, is supposed to be running a charity? Remember, by and large web designers are small businessmen too. > Unfortunately, many IT schools apparently don't > require Economics101 which would have taught > them that 85% of this nation's economy is based > upon SMALL local businesses. You don't need Economics101 for that. And I think the message of Economics101 is more -- supply and demand. Don't get me wrong, there are people to stay away from in web design. But if a small business owner comes up to me and says he needs a web site that will do X, Y, and Z but he can only spend $100 am I supposed to do the work even though it will take me hundreds of hours? Am I supposed to avoid telling him how much it will cost him to have me do it at my prices because I might scare the poor man? I look at web designers like I do plumbers and electricians. They're trades that require a body of knowledge and charge a pretty penny for it. For big, complicated jobs you really have to use a professional. But I can rewire a lamp, replace a light fixture, unstop a drain or replace a washer. I only have professionals do those things if I have money to burn or if under duress (for instance, will be on crutches for a while). I know all sorts of people who are not technical who managed to set up their own web sites. And if they can't afford the toll, they need to hit the books and learn how to do the work themselves. They need to learn enough about the Internet and related fields to be an educated shopper, just as they would do for plumbing or electrical services at their place of business. If they take the word of every doofus who comes in and tries to sell them something, they're not going to get very far in business or even their personal life (same applies to plumbing and electrical and such at their house). It's called being an adult. It's called being resourceful. Both qualities are essential to surviving as a small businessperson IMO. Sheryl Coppenger ------- new post - new topic -------- From: Bob Gladstein Subject: iFrame > Search engines can, and do, spider content in iFrames. But if > the content in the iFrame is from another web site (not always > the case) then that spider is now on their site and is spidering them. - Dave Mead, LED 1957 That's correct, but a similar problem exists even if the content that's populating the iFrame is on your site. What the spider will see is the source page, so if you're loading content from b.htm into an iFrame on a.htm, the spider is going to index b.htm as a separate document. You may then end up with the same problem people experience when framed pages get crawled: the search engine's index is going to include a page with no navigation, and users clicking through from a SERP are going to be stranded. I'm not sure about whether it's considered proper to use a <.noframes> element with an iFrame. According to the W3C's specification on iFrames (at http://snipurl.com/e3ht [w3.org]) the indication seems to be that alternate content should go directly into the <.iframe> tag, in much the same way <.object> tags are set up. Here's the example they give: ------------------------- "The information to be inserted inline is designated by the src attribute of this element. The contents of the IFRAME element, on the other hand, should only be displayed by user agents that do not support frames or are configured not to display frames. "For user agents that support frames, the following example will place an inline frame surrounded by a border in the middle of the text. " <.IFRAME src="foo.html" width="400" height="500" scrolling="auto" frameborder="1">[Your user agent does not support frames or is currently configured not to display frames. However, you may visit <.A href="foo.html">the related document.<./A>]<./IFRAME> " ------------------------- Bob Gladstein Raise My Rank Services ------- new post - same topic -------- From: Shari Thurow Subject: iFrame Hi all- This is in response to Dave Mead's post in LED #1957. Search engines treat iframe content no different than they treat regular framed content. They have been doing this for awhile now. Except I have to admit, some search engines are better at frames than others. In his post, he mentioned putting keyword-rich content in the noframes tag. Just so everyone knows, search engines either ignore or devalue (depends on the search engine) the content in the noframes tag because it has been abused so much. So even though it's a best practice to use with iframes and regular frames (for users), it ceased to be a search engine optimization strategy a long, long time ago. Best wishes, Shari Thurow, Webmaster/Marketing Director ~ See us at the Search Engine Marketing Road Show http://www.semroadshow.com/ ==== BILLBOARD =================================== From: John Smart Subject: Getting Desired Traffic I have a client who sells lifts for car roofs (www.removabletops.com). It is a long established site that is doing pretty well. I am currently rebuilding his site, but that isn't enough for his needs. He wants traffic -- good, targeted traffic, that will lead to sales (don't we all!). He has played with Overture, and other paid for listings and is always looking for something worthwhile. The last one he found was looking great until he saw the price was US$1,000 per month. What he is looking for is ideas -- ideas that will pay dividends. He will invest in promotion, providing it is going to have a valid ROI. I guess I am asking all of you to do my job for me -- but my SEO work doesn't really go to this level, and I have not had to do this before, so I am stumped. I thought it would be best to ask some experts, so here I am. These are his specific concerns: - His competitors are doing better than him. - One of his resellers, who recently started reselling his products as a college project is selling more units than he is (It is always good to sell through a reseller -- but in this case it is preferable to sell directly) It should be noted that he isn't looking for instant fixes, he is aware that this is an ongoing process. Any thoughts -- including offers of work -- will be gratefully received. John Smart, Technical Director InternetDesign.com - A Human Touch in a Digital World <Moderator Comment> Please contact John off-list with your contract offers at: JSmart, InternetDesign.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2005 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Many a man is praised for his reserve and so-called shyness when he is simply too proud to risk making a fool of himself." - J. B. Priestley |
