| LED Digest 1959: Web Design Wars |
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================================================== The LED Digest Moderated Discussion List "Effective Online Advertising, Since 1997" pair Networks: The LED's Web Host Hosting and Domain Reg. from a Trusted Leader pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains ================================================== List Moderator: Published by: Adam Audette LED Digest This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it http://www.led-digest.com .............................................. April 20, 2005 Issue #1959 .............................................. .....IN THIS DIGEST..... ==== CONTINUING ================= --== Problems with Web Design [was: Internet-centricity] ==-- ~ Scott M Stolz "...it generally is not worth it to do a project for less than $1000 unless it is VERY limited..." ~ Rick Gortatowsky "It's nothing against web designers but reality is designers are not engineers..." ~ John Smart "...in any business, part of it is charging what the market is prepared to pay..." --== Beware of Internet-centricity ==-- ~ Renee Kennedy "I've been noticing that Google and Yahoo are both taking up Local Business Directories." ~ Greg Watson "In November 2003 I started an online 'hobby' business..." ==== BILLBOARD =================== --== Getting Desired Traffic ==-- ~ Brad Waller --== Branded RSS Apps ==-- ~ Greg Cain ===== CONTINUING ================================= From: Scott M Stolz Subject: Problems with Web Design (was: Internet-centricity) I wanted to comment on some of the points that Bill Davison made about problems with web design for small business. > 1. Many designers have too high an opinion of themselves > and sneer at any less than multi-thousand clients. Part of the problem is that most small business owners do not realize how much work is actually required to build their website. I have done projects for thousands of dollars, and I have done projects for less than $1000. And what I have found is that it generally is not worth it to do a project for less than $1000 unless it is VERY limited in scope. And even then the client expects more and demands more than what was originally agreed upon. Several projects that were priced "affordably" in the client's eyes paid me less than minimum wage. Somehow I don't think that it is fair that I get paid that little for the expertise I bring to the table. And if I were an employee, it would have been illegal. Some web designers do have too high of an opinion of themselves, there is no doubt about that. But even for the ones who don't, they should still get paid a decent rate for their work. Ones who charge too little are the ones who do not know economics (i.e. how to make a profit). The ones who charge thousands of dollars actually know economics well (i.e. supply & demand and how to price a product to get a profit). It's the same with Realtors. I may not like the market value of a house, but Realtors know how to market and price it so it sells and makes a profit. I could complain all day about them making housing "affordable" but that wouldn't change their costs or the market value, and it would be unprofitable for them to do so. That being said, small business websites could be made more affordable for small businesses if the small business learned how to maintain it themselves. There are many new hosting companies that are coming out offering template websites just for small businesses who cannot afford a web designer. Some of them make it easy enough for someone who knows the basics of word processing to update the website. That is an alternative for small businesses that cannot afford the web designer fees or don't have time to do it themselves. I also teach people who to create and update their own web pages. An interesting things happened after showing a customer how to update his own web pages, which he requested me to do. He called me back 2 months later and asked me to update it for him. He realized how much work it takes and said it was cheaper to pay me than for him to update it himself! It was taking away too much time from running his business, he said. I think if people understood how much work it takes to make a quality website, they would be more than happy to pay the thousands of dollars asked, especially if they realized how much time it would take for them to learn and do it themselves. Scott M. Stolz http://www.wistex.com/ -------- new post - same topic --------- From: Rick Gortatowsky Subject: Web Design In LED 1958 Mike Banks Valentine states that every business should have a website as an accent or replacement to the telephone. We agree and disagree on this concept. For the cost of having a website its certainly cheap enough in hosting and at least in the USA is tax deductible. To expect it to be an effective Web however is highly highly questionable. There are many variables involved when comparing just having a website and having an effective website. We have serviced numerous clients who wanted an effective website and four years spent money hiring "web designers" to create the sites. In developing a web its ever so important if it is to be a truly interactive / useful web... ie: not just a logo site with a call us or email us here that a fairly intensive review of options, goals and expectations take place before the word website even comes into conversation. If a site is going to be dealing with many surfers, if it is a sales or support site, a business, corporate etc. site. Need it be a pretty much one time shot or require significant updates and work for the customer. We have built some 80-90 webs for others and every single one has exceeded the clients expectations as has our service after. Of those webs all but two of them were businesses who had already paid others multiple times in some cases to create sites for them. When I give advice to any prospective entity wanting a web the first thing I tell them is make absolutely certain ahead of time that whomever is going to create the site is able to meet or exceed the present and future vision of what they want that site to be. I tell them stay clear of "designers" as literally every web we have revamped was created by a designer. Its nothing against web designers but reality is designers are not engineers nor are designers interested in making certain that the web to be created is the perfect fit for the client. It's rather funny in ways. Five or six of the webs we revamped the owners had us attend the "designers" site and while the graphics and all were cute most entertaining were the testimonials. Every testimonial was glowing... imagine that. Several told us that the designers incisted that their name was on the web work such as "Site created by..." If one wants an effective web then one need make certain its created by someone who is more than someone who can make graphics and webpages. They need make sure that said entity will help the client LEARN how to be effective on the web. Many clients we have serviced were hit hard on pricing from others and absolutely astonished at our pricing. For US$2500 plus the cost of the commerce software we made many an effective web. Yet, we have serviced customers who told us they had paid $8000 plus for commerce webs nor do we care less if it says site created or maintained by... on it. If a client is going to insist on a web designer be needed for pretty graphics or cutesy design thats fine. Hire a firm or engineer to make the site. Have that entity sub-contract "design". We've had this occur a few times. It doesnt make the web designers too happy as they do not have control nor should they. The engineer has control and writes up specific requirements for the designer to do. Period. If the designer misses, is slow, whatall then they will need to worry about payment wont they? Again... I have nothing against web designers but reality is if a business wants on the web, wants to be effective on the web then they need either 1. Learn how to be effective on the web or 2. Hire people who are effective on the web and will help them LEARN how to be web effective w/o expectation of spending more and more money to do so. Rick Gortatowsky Software Society ------- new post - same topic -------- From: John Smart Subject: Web Design > Maintenance fees for such clients should be priced not > "what the market will bear"... but affordable. - Bill Davison, LED 1957 > So the web designer, unlike any other businessperson, > is supposed to be running a charity? Remember, by and > large web designers are small businessmen too. - Sheryl Coppenger, LED 1958 I must agree with Sheryl - in any business, part of it is charging what the market is prepared to pay. Having gone from being very small, to being a good size-small business (a new phrase!) I have learned that if you only charge what you think people can afford, you will probably bankrupt yourself. It would be wrong to get a customer started using proprietary software, then inflate the prices - but to give realistic prices for work done is the only way to succeed. In no longer trying to be the cheapest, we no longer have any 'trouble clients' - clients who expect perfection yesterday for free (People who want a Ferrari for the cost of a bicycle). We are not the most expensive by a long way. We do offer exceptional work for a good price. Yes, there are companies who are cheaper - and any one of our clients or potential clients are welcome to use them. Some probably won't be as good, fast and efficient as us. Some probably will be better. Welcome to the world of business. When I still lived in England, I heard a radio interview with someone very high up in McDonalds. He was asked why the burgers cost so much money (this was at a time when in the US Burger King and McDonalds were having a price war - the price war did not reach the UK). He replied (I am paraphrasing a little here) "We charge that much because we can". And there you have it. I am sure that most will agree that you can get better burgers than those offered by McDonalds. And you can usually get cheaper (not counting the offer of the day/week/month, but the cost of a full meal). Yet still we all march to McDonalds. I was angry with McDonalds when I heard that interview. I am not anymore - if people don't want to pay, they won't. If you price yourself out of the market, you will fail. Of course, there are those who do charge too much, and don't get customers, but get victims. I do feel for those customers - the ones taken advantage of. But at any time, they can look online, or in the phone book, or in many other places and find another company to deal with Working with what the market can afford isn't wrong. It isn't greed. It is part of business. Making sure I can keep running, I can stay in business - that is caring for my existing and future clients. I will still be here whenever they need me. John Smart, Technical Director InternetDesign.com - A Human Touch in a Digital World ------- new post - new topic -------- From: Renee Kennedy Subject: Internet-centricity I've been noticing that Google and Yahoo are both taking up Local Business Directories. I do think the local market has been ignored a long time by the big search engines, but with these new directories, maybe we will see a turn around. I think that small, local-only business can profit from a web site. Even a landscaping business. It's all in how the thing is marketed. If you market to your local audience in your content - then the site has the potential to reach the target market (local market). For instance, if you have your city and county in your title tags and throughout your text, the engines will pick that information up. Also, the site can be used for much more than just simply getting leads from search engines. The web is a beautiful way to display work. A landscaping website is the perfect way for the company to display many pictures of their work. It can function as a brochure - but unlike a printed brochure, it's updated with a click and a save. Renee Kennedy e-Healthcare Solutions, Inc. www.e-healthcaresolutions.com ------- new post - same topic -------- From: Greg Watson Subject: Internet-centricity > I really don't need word of mouth, I only need 'word of click'. - Rod Aries, LED 1954 In November 2003 I started an online "hobby" business with a goal of nothing more than to "make" about US$300 to cover my "hobby" costs for the year. Through "word of mouth" my online "hobby" business made over $12K over the following year (2004) -- now I might not consider that a job or a business, but it makes my mortgage payment each month. Excellent customer service and fast shipping (in most cases same day) creates a lot of "word of mouth" -- mostly good! Proof - sales in the last three months are up 191% over last year. Greg Watson ==== BILLBOARD =================================== From: Brad Waller Subject: Traffic project John Smart has a client who sells lifts for car roofs and need traffic (buyers) and is looking for new ideas. Has he made deals or contacts with all the car enthusiast sites out there? With thousands of these types of sites, you have the exact audience right there. Some of these sites are so small that they may not have official advertising or sponsorship deals, and some are so large that they may be out of range for your client. But a quick search of DMOZ shows over 1500 sites under "Enthusiasts" (Recreation > Autos > Enthusiasts) and 127 for the Corvette (Recreation > Autos > Makes and Models > Chevrolet > Corvette), I'm sure you can target the right demographic (higher end cars with card top convertibles) by choosing a few hundred of these sites and make deals with them. Advertising and sponsoring these communities is a great way to being the one they think of when it comes time to buy. Continuing along this thought and combining it with the discussion on the value of forums, many of these sites have forums. He can register with all of these forums and watch them for people with questions that he can answer. They don't all have to be about what he is selling, but anything he is knowledgeable about. This participation is free, although it takes time. Brad Waller, VP Affiliate & Business Development http://epage.com - Free Custom Classifieds waller, epage.com -------- new post - new topic --------- From: Greg Cain Subject: RSS-related post I've been reading, with great interest, the various topics in recent digests relating to the pros / cons in using RSS technology in a commercial environment. Earlier discussion focused on uses of RSS as an alternative and possibly an eventual replacement to commercial e-zines that have shown a steady decline primarily due to spam. I don't, however, recall seeing any discussion pertaining to the eventual implementation of some sort of customized RSS "push-to-desktop" software similar to those developed by the various weather sites (weatherbug.com / weather.com) that would be ideal for delivering alerts to the customer's desktop regarding sales, promotions, current news, etc... I can picture a company developing it's own proprietary software that is completely branded (unlike a generic RSS reader), downloaded by the customer from the company's web site, and installed with an icon in the desktop tray that can be customized to scan and alert only for the types of news / promotions the customer is interested in receiving from that company. This would seem to be a great alternative, or compliment to, the "traditional" method of alerting customers online via the ever-declining e-zine. I'm curious if anyone has tried or seen this type of marketing from a commercial vendor, or knows of a developer that would provide that type of custom software product. Greg Cain Crabplace.com ------------------------------------------------------- The LED Digest is sponsored by pair Networks: pair.com for Hosting | pairNIC.com for Domains Copyright 1995-2005 Orange Wheel, LLC. All Rights Reserved. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "So you think that money is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all money?" - Ayn Rand |
